THE SUPREME SPOILER!!!

Salomon

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Jun 17, 2019
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I just went through the Convocation of Mirror and WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?:eek:
Look, I had already read on the forum people commenting on what the gods really were! About what they could want with their soul and stuff! But go through the dialode and get that information straight from the goddess of secrets! This is totally different! i'm still in shock as i write this!:eyepop:
IT IS KIND OF YOU TO HEAR THAT THE GOLUN (SMIGOL) STEALS THE "ONE RING" AT THE END OF THE KING'S RETURN! ANOTHER WELL DIFFERENT THING IS TO SEE HIM ARRANGING THE FRODO RING TOGETHER WITH THE FINGER BEFORE FALLING INTO THE DEEP OF ORODRUIN !!!
OR THEN YOU SEE THAT THE OPTIMOS PRIME WILL BE A VILLAIN ON THE LAST KNIGHT TRAILER, AND THEN YOU WILL WATCH IT BEING TRANSFORMED IN NEMESIS PRIME!!!!
Nothing could have prepared me for this! It was like when I saw the birth of Kinu or Helspawn!

Now I ask: How will this affect our interactions and dialogues with the 7?:iiam:
 

WolframL

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[munches popcorn]

But it actually does alter dialogue if you see it before you meet Keros, as he'll know that you know and politely suggest you keep that knowledge to yourself. It'll probably come up in conversations with any of the other gods that we interact with in the future.
 

Salomon

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I have to admit that it changed my view of the gods. I mean, this is the kind of dramatic revelation that you would see near the end of a story, NOT IN A CORNER THAT WOULD LITERALLY BE THE FIRST MAP OF THE GAME! I'm not saying it was easy! But usually the writers keep that letter for last, at most between half and end! It's like you're watching Dragon Ball and they reveal that Goku was Oozaru already in the 3rd episode! I'm not complaining, but that curved ball hit me right in the forehead!
I still intend to hand Inari's soul over to Keros! Damn, I think the fact that the champion knows about it and still accepts the pact, only further increases the value of the agreement! You are not surrendering your soul to the gods you have been bound to worship all your life! You are handing her over to a being who was part of the equivalent of Ragnarok, realized her sins and assumed the identity of a god to be able to redeem herself, and trusting that he will fulfill the role that he accepted to play, giving them the vote of maximum confidence!
I would at least expect them to say thank you for giving them a chance to prove to everyone, and especially to themselves, that they are worthy of the love and adoration of their people!
 

GEESE

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Sep 27, 2018
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it makes me less trusting of keros, and yet more trusting of snekmama, the one thing I was able to gather from that questline was her genuine regret and desire to improve things. On the other hand for Keros, the first thing he does after "returning" is fixing all of the fuckups that had been building up in the old country, so maybe my suspicion is unfounded. I wish it was something I could confront him about.
 
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Gutts

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Makes me wonder how Cait would feel if she knew about the gods little secret? Her being a devote follower of Mallach and all
 
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GEESE

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I'm pretty sure letting this secret out would be an apocalyptic disaster. No matter how altruistic they have become, there's no way the populous would handle being lied to by a handful of wraiths pretending to be their gods.
 

Alypia

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Apr 22, 2016
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Who are the "real" gods? The ones who dipped out? Or the ones who are still there, living in the world and responding to their worshipers?

Wraith!Keros, for example, breaks bread with the colonial kitsune, helped the Champion save Floof Wife, officiated the Champion's wedding, and is willing to take the Champion on as His living representative in the world. How much does it matter that he's not the OG?

There's a fun movie - and a better book - called The Return of Martin Guerre, on a case of an impostor in early modern southern France, that might shed some light on another way to view all this. Famously, the impostor not only managed to secure the loyalty of the man's wife, but also that of most of the townspeople. He may not have been the original Martin Guerre, but he was a better husband and better neighbor than Martin had been, and he was there while Martin was not. Those things matter to people, too. (The story also helped inspire a famously divisive Simpsons episode, but let that go.)

And, y'know what, take the whole impostor bit out of the equation. At least as far as we know, the wraith!gods saved the world. They were, of course, very handsomely compensated for this service, to the tune of becoming gods, but it was a service all the same. Doesn't that matter?
 
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Salomon

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Who are the "real" gods? The ones who dipped out? Or the ones who are still there, living in the world and responding to their worshipers?

Wraith!Keros, for example, breaks bread with the colonial kitsune, helped the Champion save Floof Wife, officiated the Champion's wedding, and is willing to take the Champion on as His living representative in the world. How much does it matter that he's not the OG?

There's a fun movie - and a better book - called The Return of Martin Guerre, on a case of an impostor in early modern southern France, that might shed some light on another way to view all this. Famously, the impostor not only managed to secure the loyalty of the man's wife, but also that of most of the townspeople. He may not have been the original Martin Guerre, but he was a better husband and better neighbor than Martin had been, and he was there while Martin was not. Those things matter to people, too. (The story also helped inspire a famously divisive Simpsons episode, but let that go.)

And, y'know what, take the whole impostor bit out of the equation. At least as far as we know, the wraith!gods saved the world. They were, of course, very handsomely compensated for this service, to the tune of becoming gods, but it was a service all the same. Doesn't that matter?

that's exactly my opinion
 
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MeIsntVeryCreative

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Which basically confirmed the suspicion from Lusamine about the Gods is just a bunch of sorcerers...which they were kinda...or trees...or anything potentially once they were powerful enough. I like to think that River being one of the Tsukumogami-like local deity but ideas of him being an agent of Mallach is interesting. (How big Mallach's balls are?)

Speaking of sorcerers and the Gods of CoC is it reminded me of how demon started out as a bunch of power-hungry (human? kinda forgot) slutcerers in Mareth, whom fuck their souls out (and eat it?), eventually gained enough power to overthrow Gods.

So from the CoC2 canon we established that Mareth is a dimensional-hub (similar to Xen in Half Life) in between pocket universes (Savarra being one of them) inside one of the CoC macroverse's multiverse, and that we know that the CoC1 the spatial continuum being so permeable that one can even traverse across Mareth without much walking/flying/whatever and that those from the other universes can get in with ease, just not the other way around.

So we can assume that most of the Gods in Mareth is most likely similar nature of CoC2 Seven as well given how easy it is to get into Mareth. And given how the demons eventually overthrew most of the Gods inside Mareth, I think it puts to a perspective of just how OP the demons are, especially Lethice, considering how Kassyra can't even put a dent to the Wraith showed up in her portal only to be one-shotted by Lumia, just how ridiculously overpower the CoC Champion is OMEGALUL.
 
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Salomon

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I like to think that River being one of the Tsukumogami-like local deity but ideas of him being an agent of Mallach is interesting. (How big Mallach's balls are?)
with respect to who or what River is: I already created a specific topic for Him

So from the CoC2 canon we established that Mareth is a dimensional-hub (similar to Xen in Half Life) in between pocket universes (Savarra being one of them) inside one of the CoC macroverse's multiverse, and that we know that the CoC1 the spatial continuum being so permeable that one can even traverse across Mareth without much walking/flying/whatever and that those from the other universes can get in with ease, just not the other way around.
And in fact it has already been specified that Mareth IS a pocket universe located in the space between the universes (something like a bubble floating through the void from which the Wraiths came)!

So we can assume that most of the Gods in Mareth is most likely similar nature of CoC2 Seven as well given how easy it is to get into Mareth. And given how the demons eventually overthrew most of the Gods inside Mareth, I think it puts to a perspective of just how OP the demons are, especially Lethice, considering how Kassyra can't even put a dent to the Wraith showed up in her portal only to be one-shotted by Lumia, just how ridiculously overpower the CoC Champion is OMEGALUL.
and it has also been explained that Mareth was originally populated only by animals and some deities and spirits! when the first humans (a group of magicians [possibly from Estelore, the same ones who opened the portal to the Void]) arrive at Mareth, the local gods, inspired by these strange newly arrived creatures, decided to remodel the animals they liked best, giving rise to the anthropomorphic species of Mareth!

therefore, I believe that we can trace a certain hierarchy based on the power of the entities that we find in the CoC series:
the 7> Wraiths> gods of Mareth> demons.
However, even though the gods of Mareth focus more powerful than the demons, the demons could multiply and corrupt everything they touch, so the gods of Mareth were at a disadvantage, since they even had physical bodies, and were not immune to corruption, as happened to Marae!
 

MeIsntVeryCreative

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I think my issues is more of that Kassyra seems pretty tame relatively in terms of threat level "Pepepains" especially if you gone through her lover route as it is now. And yeah that river comment is in response of that thread despite being different subject but I think it is little too trivial for a separate replies there personally.

You did made a point about the tactics that demons can employ although Marae's in terms of mobility is pretty grounded "Pepepains" so it doesn't felt like a compelling enough example for me to portray how demons vs gods of war in Marae turns out. Also corruption isn't the an aspect exclusively known to the demons given what we've seen the Wraith is capable of (minions).

I mean since human wizards from other universe has access into Mareth, logically that the entities whom are even stronger than supposedly yuman it would makes sense that whatever that is including Wraiths would've arrived before as well and presumably proclaimed "Godhood" on that land similar to the fashion of the Seven in Savarra(once consoom enough "MEGALUL"). Considering Marae's lack of mobility we can safely assume that she is one of the few surviving local deity that probably considered a lesser threat relatively by the demons, which explains how the demons decided to deal with her instead of just wipe her out similar to a fashion of what probably happened to Taoth(Considering the remaining kitsunes in CoC1 had access to their own eldritch pocket dimension that is their den turns out in the exhausted bad end? Can't remember to be exact. And given how enlightened you became once achieved nine-tails I assume that CoC1 kitsunes/Taoth Prime are likely being stronger than CoC2's counterpart at the baseline. I totally would like to have a nod to that though once CoC2 nine-tail is possible, similar to how TiTS done for Foxfire/Frostfire). Also makes the previous Marae example even weaker.

PS: Given that Keros kept Kiyoko's birth accelerating quirk after freeing her genuinely foreshadowed for me that there is going to be a catastrophic event of Taoth's making in the future (aside of convenience for gameplay mechanic which is way more likely to be the actual reason, can't help it, I am sort of into darker stuff)

From writing perspective, obviously that CoC2 with The Seven and The Wraith introduces some power level creeping in comparison to CoC1 which I don't fault them from writing this way, whether it is of some form of oversight or not, unintentionally makes it harder to connect the lore between two games, well not impossible certainly as my post shown. Pardon me of my shitty language and wording, well I made this username four years ago for a reason which granted is probably not the best of all ideas, all things considered.
 
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Salomon

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I think my issues is more of that Kassyra seems pretty tame relatively in terms of threat level "Pepepains" especially if you gone through her lover route as it is now. And yeah that river comment is in response of that thread despite being different subject but I think it is little too trivial for a separate replies there personally.

You did made a point about the tactics that demons can employ although Marae's in terms of mobility is pretty grounded "Pepepains" so it doesn't felt like a compelling enough example for me to portray how demons vs gods of war in Marae turns out. Also corruption isn't the an aspect exclusively known to the demons given what we've seen the Wraith is capable of (minions).

I mean since human wizards from other universe has access into Mareth, logically that the entities whom are even stronger than supposedly yuman it would makes sense that whatever that is including Wraiths would've arrived before as well and presumably proclaimed "Godhood" on that land similar to the fashion of the Seven in Savarra(once consoom enough "MEGALUL"). Considering Marae's lack of mobility we can safely assume that she is one of the few surviving local deity that probably considered a lesser threat relatively by the demons, which explains how the demons decided to deal with her instead of just wipe her out similar to a fashion of what probably happened to Taoth(Considering the remaining kitsunes in CoC1 had access to their own eldritch pocket dimension that is their den turns out in the exhausted bad end? Can't remember to be exact. And given how enlightened you became once achieved nine-tails I assume that CoC1 kitsunes/Taoth Prime are likely being stronger than CoC2's counterpart at the baseline. I totally would like to have a nod to that though once CoC2 nine-tail is possible, similar to how TiTS done for Foxfire/Frostfire). Also makes the previous Marae example even weaker.

PS: Given that Keros kept Kiyoko's birth accelerating quirk after freeing her genuinely foreshadowed for me that there is going to be a catastrophic event of Taoth's making in the future (aside of convenience for gameplay mechanic which is way more likely to be the actual reason, can't help it, I am sort of into darker stuff)

From writing perspective, obviously that CoC2 with The Seven and The Wraith introduces some power level creeping in comparison to CoC1 which I don't fault them from writing this way, whether it is of some form of oversight or not, unintentionally makes it harder to connect the lore between two games, well not impossible certainly as my post shown. Pardon me of my shitty language and wording, well I made this username four years ago for a reason which granted is probably not the best of all ideas, all things considered.
In terms of power, Marae was the strongest and also the weakest, since being the goddess of Earth, her power is directly linked to the conditions of Mareth!
when it comes to mobility, she was not always stuck on that small island, just after the demons managed to corrupt much of the world, she ended up being stuck in that small lake, which was probably one of Mareth's last pure places, at least until the demons build the factory and start polluting the place!
And in CoC1, we were presented with only 3 of the different gods that abit that world (since it seems that there is practically one god for each sentient species), these gods were Marae herself: goddess of nature, Beast: goddess of predation and Taoth: god of trickery and illusion!
Marae was using all her strength just to resist corruption!
Beast sided with the demons even at the beginning of the war, because she agreed with their vision, and that is why she ended up being sealed inside a pumpkin!
And Taoth had his body destroyed, having to hide his soul in Urta's body and use her and the Champion to be reborn! (and as far as we know, he was the only one of the gods who got to be "killed" by the demons)

we also have to consider that for the 7 to be able to evolve from alpha wraiths to "gods" (losing the ability "unacceptable hunger" and learning the ability, they had to consume an immense amount of souls loaded with emotions, memories, beliefs and values, thing that they could hardly get by feeding only on ironic beasts in an uninhabited world as Mareth was described before the arrival of humans!

Not to mention the fact that when Kass arrives in Savarra, the 7 did not consider her a threat big enough for them to face personally, preferring to send heroes in her name to end the problem. However, when a Wraith emerges from the portal in the ice palace, Lumia itself appears to eliminate the creature! so it can be understood that Demons are at a much lower threat level than Wraiths!
 

MeIsntVeryCreative

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In terms of power, Marae was the strongest and also the weakest, since being the goddess of Earth, her power is directly linked to the conditions of Mareth!
Not sure where this came from but I am sure that the game certainly don't emphasize too much regarding "power level" to begin with and made it explicitly vague so it is pretty much similar to touhou power level situation. I guess it could easily ended either way.

Given that the Wraith are interdimensional "species"/entities that usually resides between the gap of the universes so personally think it would be logical to assume that Wraith already gotten into Mareth especially with the universe that is apparently very "permeable" and presumably also undergo the same process the current Seven has gone through, it wouldn't be so far-fetched to think that the Gods wiped out by demons occupying inside Mareth are also in nature similar of The Seven.

Also given that what we are seeing is after the war, makes it harder to use the current surviving Gods of Mareth as reference point to pinpoint the exact picture what had happened.

However, when a Wraith emerges from the portal in the ice palace, Lumia itself appears to eliminate the creature! so it can be understood that Demons are at a much lower threat level than Wraiths!
Obviously yes your statement by itself is correct although my subject is more about the peak of the demon's power level and given what we've learnt about Kassyra herself, is that she's probably not part of the first generation demons that obliterated the Gods of Mareth. Given what she think of Lethice, I personally concluded that there is simply so much of the power level difference that she can't directly confront her queen and overthrowing her directly which I assume she would if given her chance, especially her dragon-demon hybrid minion reporting basically proven that she does has an eye on her. (actually now I think about it, not necessarily since it is a big enough news to learn if given close enough proximity with the Fortress, regardless of the intention)

As much as she doesn't have the reason to do so since it is not her main objective for Savarra invasion, not that she could possibly pull that off while CoC1 Champion beating Lethice ass up anyway, she has as much reason for why not do that instead given her nature of being a demon. Beside being a queen would also means that she would had more freedom and resources to aid her research and all so why not.

PS: Also I really like the fact that Kassyra's existence in CoC2 basically explained where Kiha came from, so there is that.
 
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Salomon

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Also I really like the fact that Kassyra's existence in CoC2 basically explained where Kiha came from, so there is that.
it is quite possible that Kiha was one of the prototypes of dragonoids created by Kass, so with Valeria it was a prototype of Goo-Girl! (It would be interesting if Kass comments on Kiha at some point! Maybe even revealing about the red-haired Tsundere's past!
 
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