Revamp of Dragonfire and adding new breath-attacks

[Stadler]

Let's start with my reasons, why I implemented, that hummus removes the Dragonfire perk in my mod:

About Hummus removing the Dragonfire perk:

• First off I stand corrected: I was in error, when I believed, that its being kept upon ascension, but anyway:
  
• I've added this, because I want to reduce my dragonScore to zero from time to time, to start that TF from scratch. Even if its just to go through the Dragonfire TF part again and again Actually I want to be able to start most if not all TFs from scratch.
  
• Sometimes I want to get it from Ember her-/himself, but the flower was faster :/
• Similiar example: Hummus already removes Incorporeality and its the only transformation, that removes that perk, so why not Dragonfire, too
  
• I think that hummus should remove all TFs, that add point to a certain race score.
  
• Regaining that perk is fairly easy. If you have reached a dragonScore() >= 4, you'll almost immediately obtain it from Ember or the Drake's Heart.
  Just take a look at the requirement code: if (player.dragonScore() >= 4 && changes < changeLimit && player.findPerk(PerkLib.Dragonfire) < 0) {
  
• On the other hand: I could add a new recipe for Rathazul to brew something to remove that perk as an alternative to use Hummus. What about that @Kitteh6660?
  

After thinking it over and over again, if I should file a PR, that fixes this, although @Kitteh6660 said, that he doesn't intend to implement this, I came to the following conclusion:


Dragons are weak compared to other races!


Why, you ask?
Well, lets take that perk away from dragons (and all others, too). What are dragons now? Right: Lizards with wings and thats it.
Note, that I'm aware that there are the dragon stat-bonuses and that others, especially lizans can gain them, too. But I have absolutely no problem with that. So lets go back to the Dragonfire perk:
You can eat the Drakes flower or drink Ember's blood until you get that perk (and thats an easy task, like I said above) and never visit Ember or the volcanic crag again. The result is: Every damn race out there gets it.
So I think, that dragons need a few buffs. I don't want them to be overpowered, but some tiny tweaks would be nice.
Most of the balancing, I'm planning would come from the claw based combat.
Another thing would be buffing the Dragonfire perk itself and:

• Add new breath attacks for other races, like the 'normal' Fire Breath
  
• Implement, that some races lose that perk and the Fire Breath, while other races replace that perk with the Fire breath.
  
• Allow it to be trained. e. g. multiple uses per day, slighly becoming stronger (e.g. 5-10%). Or at some point: Replace x uses per day with a cooldown.
  
  Untrained (Level 0?) The damage could even be lower, than it is atm.
  

[*]If its made permanent: Instead of removing it, reset the level (e. g. if (dragonScore() < 7) { /* flag.DRAGON_BREATH_LEVEL = 0; */ }).

• 
  Obviously Dragonfire training would be enabled depending on the requirement to have a higher level being met.
  

Again: I want to buff dragons without making other races too weak aka buffing other races, too. And I think, that claw based combat is a good start.


Summary:

• Add more Breath attacks
  
• Let some races remove the perk and other races replace that perk with their very own breath attack.
  
• Dragon hybrids, like lizans with dragon features (wings and/or Dragonfire) would keep that perk. Maybe with a max level limit, maybe not ^^
  
• Buff dragons generally (Claw based attack is a good start. Granting dragon scales a slightly higher def-bonus would be another idea).
  
• Don't make them overpowered and don't forget the balancing, not all players intend to play a dragon in endgame

Don't forget, that I'm fully aware, that this requires some balancing.


Ok, nuff talking. Let's start with a list of Breath attacks:


Breath attacks already ingame:

• Dragonfire
  
  
  Gained by: Ember or Drake's Heart
  
• Permable? Yes
  
• Removed by: Not making it permanent upon ascension.
  Suggestions and Notes
  
  Its weak compared to other Breaths, like Fire Lord form Akhbal.
  
• Allow it to be trained. Probably by Ember.
  
• Make it removable by Hummanus or a new transformative solely for removing that perk only (I guess, I'd go for the latter rather than Hummanus randomly removing it).
  
• Some races should keep it. Maybe at a limited level.
  Examples:
  
  Wyverns, if added.
  
• Hellhounds (dog-morphs, that already have with the Hellfire perk)
  
• Oh and not to forget the Manticore.
  
• Lizard races (Lizan, Dragonewt, Basilisk, Dracolisk).
  
• Jörmungandr if added (They could even keep dragon wings)
  
• Lions if added (Lionne?)
  
• Cat (Dragonne)
  

[*]Some races should lose it though transformation. IMHO it should be somewhat unique to dragons and dragon-hybrids including potential dragon hybrids.
Examples:

• 
  Demons
  
• Bats, if added
  
• Dog-morphs cept Hellhounds (See above. If you have gained Hellfire you won't lose it anymore, when you TF to a dog-morph)
  
• Driders
  
• Spider morphs
  
• Bee morphs
  

[*]Hellfire

• 
  Gained by: Hellhound master encounter
  
• Permable? Yes
  
• Removed by: Not making it permanent upon ascension.
  Suggestions and Notes:
  
  Its relatively hard to gain and when you lose it you have to ascend to gain it again, so only a special transformative should remove it solely for those who don't want to wait until they ascend to get rid of it.
  

[*]Fire Lord

• 
  Gained by: Akhbal
  
• Permable? Yes
  
• Removed by: Not making it permanent upon ascension.
  Suggestions and Notes:
  
  Like I said about Hellfire: Hard to get, although you can get it again from Akhbal, so removable by a special transformative only.
  
• Its named Fire Breath in the combat menu, but it is planned to add Fire Breath, thats different from Fire Lord, so it should be renamed. mmh ... what about Demon Fire Terra Fire?
  

 

[Ormael]

Well I think if we look over other races in general there are technicaly two others atm that getting breath attack too. If PC become hellhound-like enough and go to HH master with piece of lethice it will grant him/her HH breath attack. Then we got Akbal breath attack...en version for cats I suppose since he's cat race. And then we got phoenixes with their fire breath attack.


In future when you add dracolisks they will have breath attack too (thou it would be technicaly dragon one thou...)


On point of what would happen to draon when we take it breath attack....well you will got left magical lizard with buffed stats and with wings. Thou ingame asides breath attack they are indeed just a flying lizards with slight better stats but nothing indicating they good at magic too.


Other races with breath attack...I hope you not mean like 90% of other races with this as it could be hilarious to imagine race like...goblins with breath attack ^^ (well I suppose you not meant this but I couldn't resist of typing out this hilarious thought I had so no take it as offense ^^)

 

[Stadler]

I've just finshed updating (Mostly updates to the list and the summary added)

 

[Ormael]

Well in Xianxia if PC goes for lizan first then change into ragon it would actualy make draong stronger even after removing back dragon benefirts as it would revert back to been lizard but if going first for dragon then back to lizard it would be actualy weaker winged lizard. Revamping dragon breath attack...as long you got time to do it I won't say a word against.


Not making dragons OP....errr usualy in games if finalboss is dragon-like fight getting harder quite a bit. Well think even Lethice know about it having dragon wings to looks like she's partial dragoness to scare off PC even more for oposing her xD


So which ones races you got in mind so far that would get some type of breath attack?

 

[Stadler]

Lizans (or call them dracolizans?), Dragonne, Phoenixes, Basilisks, Dracolisks. Hellhounds (when they learn Hellfire, they could learn fire breath, too)
mmh ... *thinking* ... well, probably a frost breath for Yetis, if added. Some unique breath attack for easterns, if added. Gargoyles coud gain an earth based breath attack ...

 

[Ormael]

For basilisk it would be fire-related breath attack or something else? Well aside of fire and to lesser degree (in revamp) at least for ice other element type dmg are barely supported ingame so it would only make them flavored aside doing anything else. Eventualy poioson if we take it as another tpye of dmg could be counted.


On Gargoyles...that suprised me as I not seen this race on your other thread list some time ago (at least last time I looked there). For ice breath attack maybe frost giant could have somethin similar to it.

 

[Stadler]

basilisks and lizans are pre-dragon-hybrids (let's call them this way for now) dragonfire would act, as if it has reset to level 0


e.g. (warning, cluttered RegEx inc)


// Let's assume the player has pressed the button 'Dragonfire'
if (/^(?:basilisk|lizard)(?:-taur)?$/.exec(player.race))
castDragonFire(0);


You don't understand that RegEx? Just ask. You have a problem with a RegEx your coding? Again: Just ask and I do my best, to help you


Dracolizans and Dracolisks will have the Dragonfire-perk at the actual training level (limited or unlimited is a matter of balancing)


Oh and I consider giving Basilisks a slightly higher int and tougness maximum and/or remove the Basilisk Resistance speed malus, because its natural for them to be resistant to basilisks ^^

 

[Ormael]

If I recall I long ago get rid of this weird penatly for having Basilisk Resistance in Xianxia. It maybe even giving some tiny benefit os some kind but it been so long since I changed it so my memory too blurry for now.


I kinda try imagine basilisk with fire breath...oh well probably I'm too dumb to imagine it as anything else than weird. I mean I can't recall cases of them breathing fire. But when did CoC was following reason ^^

 

[Stadler]

basilisks themselves won't gain a fire breath or dragon breath. But IMHO they shouldn't lose Dragonfire, since they're one step from becoming a Dracolisk, since they'll only lack fully grown dragon wings.

To makes things a bit clearer to you:


Heres a part of my dragon mod to help determine, if your a basilisk, a dracolisk or a dracolizan.


public function hasDragonWingsAndFire():Boolean
{
return hasDragonWings(true) && findPerk(PerkLib.Dragonfire) >= 0
}

public function isBasilisk():Boolean
{
return findPerk(PerkLib.BasiliskWomb) >= 0 /*&& eyeType == EYES_BASILISK*/;
}


PS: I'll stick with dracolizan for now, If you have a better name, please share it. In early versions of my mod I called them dracozan, but it didn't like that name, so I reverted it.

 

[Ormael]

Yeah I not see problem come with better name. Just one embrarassing thing to admit for me....what are dracolizans? They not sound to be dragon or lizans/lizard race. I would wait till you find a spare moment from working on your mod to give some even minor expanding meaning of dracolizan (I already know you can do such thing in few shords word as usual). I do have one name but I need to be sure if I imagining properly what dracolizans are.

 

[Stadler]

lizan + dragon wings + dragonfire = dracolizan


I simply want to show the difference between pure lizans and lizans with dragon features, that's all


PS: I'll release RC6 of my mod in a whiff. After that I can concentrate on other things (I hope).

 

[Ormael]

Ohh ok now I got more or less idea what you want to come with a new name. Well I think it could be named Dragonewt. Well at least in Xianxia I plan to have race that soul evolve from Lizqans been called Dragonewt, then those can soul evolve into dragons. If you feel it could be interesting name for dracolizan well I not agains you taking this one (not yet decided what will make my mod Dragonewts diff from both lizans and dragons xD )

 

[Stadler]

mmh, looking at the picture Dragonnewt looks kinda cool/ferocious. But wouldn't that be confusing, if your version of a Dragonewt is different from others?


btw: I just managed to gain the FireLord perk from Akbal. And since you can use it multiple times making it far more powerful than Dragonfire: Yet another argument to make Dragonfire trainable

 

[Zavos]

Make dragonfire a leveled spell, also scaling with magic multiplier.   Make it so that if you have a dragon score above the minimum, you get a bonus for each extra point. 
And make it usable multiple times per day. 

 

[Stadler]

Make dragonfire a leveled spell, also scaling with magic multiplier.   Make it so that if you have a dragon score above the minimum, you get a bonus for each extra point. 
And make it usable multiple times per day. 

Not just leveled. I think, getting lessons from Ember is somewhat interesting. Or not?
Multiple uses would come though levels and at a certain level it would unlimited.


PS: Added the list to the first Post.

 

[Ormael]

Some of special attacks wasn't touched for a long time so they all ended up with weird values to count how much dmg they deal. Which naturaly lead to them been differently worthy like dragon breath been quite...useless since akbal fire is similary strong or even stronger but without limit of once per day (some can argue that revamp added ember egg use during fight to remove this cd on dragon breath). So generaly whole table of physical and magical specials would req. looking over.


So now making changes only to dragon fire or in general fire attacks would make other specials slight out of date. But I not sure if you would take up on try make whole this rebalancing. If not then fire attacks could become FotM.

 

[Stadler]

So now making changes only to dragon fire or in general fire attacks would make other specials slight out of date. But I not sure if you would take up on try make whole this rebalancing. If not then fire attacks could become FotM.

Let's put it this way: If you made Dragonfire permanent though ascension I'm perfectly okay with every race out there getting it!


My approach would probably be the following (Nothing set in stone, including flag and method names):

• Add a new flag called DRAGONFIRE_CURRENT_LEVEL:int = 0; // (
  
• Add a new flag called DRAGONFIRE_MAXIMUM_LEVEL:int = -1; // -1 = not usable by the actual race
  
  At least dragons (player.race.indexOf("dragon") == 0 aka player.race starts with "dragon") would have the highest possible maximum level.
  
• I'd suggest using 10 for the highest possible level, since this makes fine-tuning max levels for different races easier.
  
• Training could raise your level either by 1 every time or somewhat exponentially, so it doesn't take 10 training sessions to reach level 10 (e. g.: level <= 3? -> level++, level <= 6 -> level += 2, level >= 7 -> level += 3)
  
• Upon ascension it is reset to level -1 or 0 if made permanent.
  
• Maybe you could even raise the level simply by using it, but personally I'd prefer having training sessions with Ember.
  
• Actually I'd personally prefer to go through the training again after ascension, even if its made permanent.
  
• For meanies, who want to destroy Ember's egg we could probably add an alternative. e. g. a demonic teacher (For example Akhbal if your corruption is very high and after you've learned Whisper and Fire Lord from him?)
  

[*]Add a new method to PlayerHelper.as called dragonFireLevel()

• 
  The method returns the smaller value of the two flags (=> Math.min(flags[kFLAGS.DRAGONFIRE_CURRENT_LEVEL], flags[kFLAGS.DRAGONFIRE_MAXIMUM_LEVEL]) )
  
• If you have ascended it would always at least return 0 if its made permanent.
  

[*]Add a new method called updateDragonFireLevel(). Called, when you undergo training, depends on current max level.


I can write the training mechanics, but I definitely need some writers and currently I only have vague ideas how training could go, so any suggestion is welcome.


Opinions? Suggestions?


PS: I'd love to open a Google Docs sheet, but it doesn't let me switch my channel :/ I guess I need a secondary account there ...
[Edit:] Ok. Found the help page: https://support.google.com/docs/answer/2405894?co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop
[Edit 2:] When using Akhbal's Fire attack the text reads "A growl rumbles deep with your chest as you charge the terrestrial fire.". Just updated the first post to use 'Terra Fire' as an alternative name.
 


I'll continue updating this post as I see fit.

 

[Ormael]

For now any race cna have dragonfire attack as long PC will go dragon for long enough to get it. It was supposed to be balanced of been not so weak in vanilla CoC with having CD. But then kitteh added option to eat ember unfertilized eggs midfight to reset cd each time you done it. That slightly changed tables from orginal design. Anyway any fire breath attack now if you notice ARE pernament addition to PC as ling s/he not ascend and loose them if it not made pernament. And as it's now system of ascension for any mod this perk will be retained (not sure if it change when I get to changes to ascension in 0.7c).


Also...for that case of learning firedragon breath form other source than Ember if PC crushed egg....Xianxia already got someone who potentialy could teach PC this perk...as long as she recover fully


As for Akhbal he's demon cat/jaguar not demonic dragon. So far we not have in game anyone who could we call demonic dragon. We got only Ember as normal dragon/ess and Kiha as mock dragoness (not sure if she actualy could posses dragon breath...she never used it so far)


WHat you mean you not able make new gdoc to share ideas? You not want have it using your primal account nickname? As if this then yes you should just make 2nd acc. If not there isn't much trouble to make new Gdoc then set it perrmisions right then give link to people.


Looking over threads you making...each seems to be touching stuff that would be not so minor change to the game ^^

 

[Stadler]

@Ormael: In short:


When you TF to a race, that shouldn't be able to use it:

• Dragonfire not made permanent yet
  
  
  remove the perk Dragonfire
  
• DRAGONFIRE_CURRENT_LEVEL not affected, meaning you won't lose your training
  
• DRAGONFIRE_MAXIMUM_LEVEL = -1 (Disabled, meaning, the button won't show up)
  

[*]Dragonfire made permanent

• 
  leave the perk as it, meaning not removing it
  
• DRAGONFIRE_CURRENT_LEVEL not affected, meaning you won't lose your training
  
• DRAGONFIRE_MAXIMUM_LEVEL = 0
  

WHat you mean you not able make new gdoc to share ideas? You not want have it using your primal account nickname? As if this then yes you should just make 2nd acc. If not there isn't much trouble to make new Gdoc then set it perrmisions right then give link to people.

I meant the latter: I didn't want to use my primary account and didn't know, that Google allows to have multiple accounts. Thank god Google isn't Facebook ...


Oh, and I've just created a new Google-Account

 

[Ormael]

Well in this case you can make simple move...make DragonBreath perk work like Flexibility. As long dragon score or certain body parts are present this perk exist...if not it will vanish.

 

[Stadler]

Yeah, thinking of it: I guess, I'll use this approach for now: You train it simply by using it for starters. If we ever add Dragonfire lessons to Ember, they will replace that approach.


However: I don't like to make it depending on dragonScore alone.
My approach would probably be a new method (aka function) in MutationsHelper.as:


// For example in mutations.mouseCocoa() -> Method call:
updateDragonfire("mouseCocoa"); // Does all the magic. Nuff said

public function updateDragonfire(tfSource:String = "regularHummus"):void
{
if (changes >= changeLimit) return;

// use some simple switch-case
// [...]

if (newMaxLevel < 0 && player.perkv4(PerkLib.Dragonfire) > 0) {
// Dragonfire made permanent
newMaxLevel = 0;
}

if (newMaxLevel >= 0 && player.findPerk(PerkLib.Dragonfire) < 0) {
// player would gain that perk
// Copy&paste from emberTFs
changes++;
return;
}

if (newMaxLevel < 0) {
// remove the perk [...]
player.removePerk(PerkLib.Dragonfire);
outputText("blah, blah, yadda, yadda ...\n<b>(Perk Lost: Dragonfire!)</b>");
changes++;
return;
}

// more stuff when max level has changed. Should be obvious. If not: Feel free to ask
}


Note, that we don't need to add this to every single TF out there at once. We simply add one after another one as we see fit.

 

[Ormael]

Yes I think such way could work too. For Flexibility it depends if PC got precise stated body parts (cat legs, tail and I think some 3rd one) so no entitrely need cat racial score. Depending on score or body parts have each of them some good and bad things. As long nothing is changed or tested it's also unkown if it would work or just broke stuff even more.

 

[Stadler]

Let's say: I have my plans and I'll start a google docs document later and link it over @ CoC Revamp Trello. And: This goes without saying: To all mod writers. Feel free to use this in your mods or link to it on your Trello pages.


I guess we should start adding new Breath attack suggestions/plans to the list above.

 

[Ormael]

Yeah gdoc sounds cool. Link it here in this thread later so I can get a look at it too ^^


About breath attacks what about things that are already added somewhere like...dragons ice breath attack or phoenixes fire breath attack?

 

[Stadler]

About breath attacks what about things that are already added somewhere like...dragons ice breath attack or phoenixes fire breath attack?

I guess we should start adding new Breath attack suggestions/plans to the list above.

Sorry, that was a bit hard to understand. I wanted to say: We should start with adding plans and suggestions for new Breath attacks to the list.


Google doc is here.


@Ormael Sorry, but I can't find your google docs account? Could you point me to it? Here or by PM?


To everyone else: If you want to add comments to that doc, please send me a PM with either your Google Docs name or your E-Mail-Address you use on google.

 

[Ormael]

I know what oyu meant jsut asked out of curiousity if there was already added new breath atttacks in some other mod. To what to do in their cases? Their not new breath attack if we look from perspective of this mod but when we look on this from Revamp perspective it's a new breath attack. I hope now I made myself more clear.


On thsi gdoc would look during the day, I feel like I can facepalm at keyboard at any moment due to tiredness and sleepness atm ^^


So night night everyone and I'm gone. (I sent you PM Stadler - I hope that was what you needed.)

 

[Coalsack]

For avian/harpy races, an sound based attack could be added, like the screech from myhtological harpies.

 

[Ormael]

For avian/harpy races, an sound based attack could be added, like the screech from myhtological harpies.

For those who would go more than current ghostly-like it could also somehow work...like a banshe cry.

 

[Stadler]

I'll stick with Dragonewt now. But my approach to the TF is simply from Dragon to lizan leaving dragon wings and Dragonfire intact. I guess, we should continue discussion about them in the race suggestions thread.

For those who would go more than current ghostly-like it could also somehow work...like a banshe cry.

Although this thread is about breath attacks I think, that Shout-attacks (for the sake of simplicity, I'll call voice-based attacks Shout-attacks) , like Banshee cry and Harpy screech could fit into the lists above.


Could your please post a (brief) description of your attack, so I can link to your post?


PS: I'm mostly finished with the Google Docs document. Please help me improve this, especially the table.

 

[B1tF0x]

I don't know exactly how far you want to go with this Claw combat thing.  But i thought id share anyway (signed up just to say this)


there's a artifact armor set in D&D 3.5 that basically allows a human to fight as a dragon Or Half dragons to fight better basically gifting the wearer improved unarmed strikes and a tail attack.  that essentially works like kobold tail weapons in pathfinder  maybe you can implement something similar i'm thinking like the bodysuit it takes up more then one slot at a time in exchange it improves all dragon like attack ability's  


My personal suggestion is  improve breath attacks in general (every test i did on akbals breath showed it as being weaker then Dbreath and Phoenix breath doing more damage more reliably i dunno)  Add the armor with this claw to claw combat system and basically let it work like double and triple strike respectively depending on how dragon like your character is allowing you to chain physical attacks in exchange for most of your defense (in 3.5 is was rather bad for armor as i recall and you only wanted it for ability's if that) and also buff tail attack ( is still dunno exactly what it does )