Patreon, Capitulation, and The Future.

[Freedom_Internet]

I know I am about a month and half late for this little party. And to be honest I was just gonna walk on by and not get involved. But then I realized if I did I wouldn't be a person of integrity. So I am bringing up and possibly reviving a topic that may lead to the termination of an account I have just made so that I can shout at the void of a world that will not listen nor learn, or paint a target on my back to which I will surely be a nameless casualty.

Ok enough trying to look like an attention seeking whore lets get to the point.
Fen and Crew. You guys are Intelligent and amazing, and I love the hard work you lot put in. But you are all damned fools.
Thats not an insult or attack, everyone is, myself included.

I'll try to keep my points short and linear, but thats unlikely

Having Patreon as you sole source of income is bad, due to recent happenings the site is doomed, its just a matter of when, not if. And its sooner rather then later.(And love, hate, don't know/care about him, the banning of shit-posting political commentator Sargon of Akkad is a good example.) Therefor you should be on more then one funding site, or at least change from one to the next as is need. Yes I know it is taxing managing more then one site or moving to a new one but if you're looking to keep your friends and employees secured in their futures it is necessary.

There are other options, its true, there is and always will be a better service, The free market prevails. As long as we are willing to evolve with the times.

Nixing Content is a band-aid not a solution, its one thing to cut or change content you are unsure about, its another to capitulate to the demands of an origination will demand or it self be ordered to demand more removal of content.

It could be the Credit processors that are pushing this, in which case I believe the solution is the same. Change service. Again its a pain, its taxing, some will claim its not worth it, and again I say the Free Market provides and that it is worth it. And because again you give in to one demand about something harmless then you continue to give into everything, till eventually you have no one left to support you, and the future you try to secure for your self, your friend, your employees, will fail and it all be gone.

I know it sound hyperbolic as hell and the rambling of a mad man, but its true. I've seen it happen many times. I've studied it happen. One need only look at honestly any facet of history. The information is there. One need only learn from it. Or be doomed to repeat it.

I guess that is all I have to say on the matter. Everyone discuss it among yourselves what you think.
Call me crazy, call me sane, idiot troll, concerned third part, or just plain wrong, but at least take a tiny bit of this heart.

Heh for fun I added a poll. Seemed fun and for the people that don't want to post and just leave a general though about what they think.

 

[null_blank]

tl;dr Mastercard, Visa, Paypal and Stripe will collude with each other and shut down crowd-funding sites they don't agree with until the government can come down on their anti-trust actions.

There can be no free market when competitors can be crushed by existing incumbent companies.

There is no free market because the little people have no choice but to appeal to the federal government to sort this out.

I'd rather Fen & Co just keep their heads down. They make porn games and expecting a porn game producer to die on a hill for someone else's free speech is disgusting.

Long before crowd funding porn producers were treated worse than criminals (and still are!) but now that some some shit lord gets himself banned for running his mouth you want everyone to drop what they're doing and rally around him? Where were all these Jordan Petersons and Akkads or whatever the fuck his name is when porn producers were getting raped sideways by the fed? I don't ever recall any of these chumps standing up for any porn producer on Patreon.

Get fucked.

 

[Aimless Rogue]

tl;dr Mastercard, Visa, Paypal and Stripe will collude with each other and shut down crowd-funding sites they don't agree with until the government can come down on their anti-trust actions.

There can be no free market when competitors can be crushed by existing incumbent companies.

There is no free market because the little people have no choice but to appeal to the federal government to sort this out.

I'd rather Fen & Co just keep their heads down. They make porn games and expecting a porn game producer to die on a hill for someone else's free speech is disgusting.

Long before crowd funding porn producers were treated worse than criminals (and still are!) but now that some some shit lord gets himself banned for running his mouth you want everyone to drop what they're doing and rally around him? Where were all these Jordan Petersons and Akkads or whatever the fuck his name is when porn producers were getting raped sideways by the fed? I don't ever recall any of these chumps standing up for any porn producer on Patreon.

Get fucked.

This.

The best thing right now would to just lay low and stay out of it, If anything actually does happen nothing could stop it anyway.

 

[Klaptrap]

Sargon "shut up shut up shut up" of Akkad is a cryptofascist and can get fucked and the reason he got kicked off of Patreon is the result of an internazi purity contest.

 

[null_blank]

If you guys want to start your own bill processing service/bank please let me know so I can laugh at you.

 

[Freedom_Internet]

tl;dr

Clearly

Mastercard, Visa, Paypal and Stripe will collude with each other and shut down crowd-funding sites they don't agree with until the government can come down on their anti-trust actions.

You are correct, they will collude with it each other.They will do everything in their power to get their way. They will push and push and push till the pillers(I.E. The content creators and consumers when are the Pillars for the Creators.) beneath them break away. With or without government help on either side. Again I will point out History has proven this.

There can be no free market when competitors can be crushed by existing incumbent companies.

There is no free market because the little people have no choice but to appeal to the federal government to sort this out.

Yes there can, it is just harder to do. And the "Little people" Have more power then you think they just need to agree on some thing and work together. It'll be a struggle and sometimes fail yes, but with out that drive and tenacity. And to be honest comments like this are ones that dissuade people from even trying.

This is how I read this, you say "This is what they will do." and imply "You're doomed for failure so don't even try." where as I say "This is what they will Try to do" Hoping to imply "Do your research, learn all you can about the field you want to get into, make preparation, have a fall back, You have the chance for success"

I'd rather Fen & Co just keep their heads down.

Despite how my original post may read there is nothing wrong with this. To be honest I do encourage them to take precautions while they find something more secure to keep their livelihood.

But if they stay too cautions and nix more thing to comply with eventual more rules they come back where they started and are in danger yet again. And surely you Agree by the vote you cast in my poll.

They make porn games and expecting a porn game producer to die on a hill for someone else's free speech is disgusting.

Again despite how my OP may read I am not asking them to die on a hill. And certainly not for someone else's free speech. Honestly the fact that THIS is what you inferred from my using Sargon as an example of why Patreon is starting to dying kinda disappoints me, and clearly marks my own failure to convey what exactly I mean.

No I am not asking for anyone to die on hill least of all for someone else, I am asking EVERYONE to realize the power they have and stand up. As I said Consumers are the Support Pillers for Creators, and Creators are the Pillers of of funding sites and credit processors. Shake the foundation of those above you enough, and they have only 2 choices, listen, or come tumbling down to the ground with the rest of and start fighting for scraps.

Also real quick I will address the Patreon dying thing as someone will bring it up I am sure. When certain other people(Whom I will not name because it will lead to the same problem as mentioning Sargon.) were kicked off Patreon do to some behavior that is debatable at best, no one really cared and those did and left with them were in the 10's maybe breaking out into 100-200 but thats it. When Sargon was removed, 1,000's left and more continue to leave, this has impacted the income of other youtubers(Yes even those who oppose and despise Sargon have gotten hit) and creators in general on a noticeable scale. Now I don't know the over lap between youtube, Sargon In particular, and Fen & Co but its safe to say Fen's Patreon has taken a hit, even if very minor.

Even if no-one subscribed to Fen leaves Patreon he will still get hit when Patreon dies and can no longer effectively provide its service. I am not making this up and I am not being hyperbolic. This is happening and it fits the pattern.

Long before crowd funding porn producers were treated worse than criminals (and still are!)

You are correct. All the more reason to stand up don't you think? Its worked for the porn community before.

but now that some some shit lord gets himself banned for running his mouth you want everyone to drop what they're doing and rally around him?

No. And thats not even what I asked for. HE was nothing more then the example I used to say that those above us are not as power as one would seem.

But that said partnering with him at least in the shadows MIGHT help in the long run.

Where were all these Jordan Petersons and Akkads or whatever the fuck his name is when porn producers were getting raped sideways by the fed? I don't ever recall any of these chumps standing up for any porn producer on Patreon.

Probably being attack by people on this side of the internet, screeching "We don't need you get the fuck out of here."

Hate to admit it but we are suffering some serious disconnect on a few core points, simple because of disagreement 1 or 2 core points and a whole host of inconsequential bullshit.

Get fucked.

Thats just rude at least attack my arguments not me. I am trying to give you the same courtesy.

The best thing right now would to just lay low and stay out of it, If anything actually does happen nothing could stop it anyway.

You are only 2/3 correct. I'll admit maybe for the time being, laying low is the best option. But lay low too long also means when something does happen then there is nothing to do to stop. Lay low for now secure a back up then stand up and fight back. This would be the best course of action I believe. Rather or not anyone believe is up for them to decide.

If you guys want to start your own bill processing service/bank please let me know so I can laugh at you.

Why? Why would you laugh at something that would ultimately be to your own benefit?






Sigh taking some time to read over this and my reply. I don't know.
I'll admit I don't have all the answers, no one does of course, but I look at history and all I see is just awfulness because no one did anything. No one seemed liked they cared. Maybe I am running a fulls errand, maybe I am fear mongering, maybe nothing will happen, but maybe something will. I am just tired of seeing good things fall by the wayside and rot. Tired of seeing good decent people end up in bad spot or even homeless because someone who could have said something didn't, because someone didn't choose uncertainty were anything good and bad can happen.

I think of it like this. (And get why people choose it as well) The campfire is warm and welcoming, and the dark is cold and scary. But. The fire stays there and threatens to burn out. And the way forward is in the dark waiting to be found, new fire to be build.

I don't know. Like I said maybe I am just being a fool. People are people they will make the choice they want and I respect that. And I truely hope it works out in the future.

 

[Evil]

I think its more the fact you came and decided that "Fen and Co should do this, this and this!"

Which frankly is bullshit.

At the end of the day, Fen is running a business. He has employees who need the money they make from the game. And yet, you have to all intents and purposes come in and told him to put not only his livelihood, but the livelihoods of his employees and their own dependants in jeopardy to die on a hill.

There have been at least two threads discussing this in the last month or so and the general consensus is that there needs to be a major overhaul of the banking system. But right now, switching to another payment system won't solve any problems, only delay them. Likewise, suggesting that they make the charge up a hill it tantamount to financial suicide.

 

[Freedom_Internet]

I think its more the fact you came and decided that "Fen and Co should do this, this and this!"

Fair enough, and looking back I can see how I sound like that.

Which frankly is bullshit.

When you see and learn about many people who have fallen by the wayside and became homeless, its really not.

At the end of the day, Fen is running a business. He has employees who need the money they make from the game.

You are correct yes. And I know it seems I don't but I do understand I really do.

And yet, you have to all intents and purposes come in and told him to put not only his livelihood, but the livelihoods of his employees and their own dependants in jeopardy to die on a hill.

No I am not asking them to die on a fucking hill. But I know I can keep saying it and you won't believe but I'll try to get through to you with this point. I am asking them AND the user base to fight for their future. Really its a choice of dying later or or maybe dying now. Yeah dying later seems like the best option because they don't have to worry for a little while, and if Fen & Co and can finish their current projects and move on to something safer then fine yeah giving in to foolish rulings just maybe the best option.

There have been at least two threads discussing this in the last month or so and the general consensus is that there needs to be a major overhaul of the banking system.

Then that is all more reason to have this discussion. We should be talking about solutions, way to achieve them. For the moment the Best I can come up with is we need to stop with the infighting, and I mean just in general, we also need to stop fighting with other communities, fan bases, or individuals we oppose on certain issue and rally together, then start trying to get the corporations to change, Or making our businesses in banking and funding to correct the imbalance, and failing both of those contacting out government representatives(If in the you live in the USA) to make these changes, because there is one thing we can agree on. We want our content creators to be able to live and continue to do what they do.

Seriously what we need is to stop fighting and actually fucking talk, not just among ourselves but to everyone being hit creator and fan alike. and if we do and work together we can actually accomplish a seemingly massive goal like this.

But right now, switching to another payment system won't solve any problems, only delay them. Likewise, suggesting that they make the charge up a hill it tantamount to financial suicide.

I will grant you this point. but then this circles back around to we need stop the bullshit fighting and actually talk and do something.

 

[Warrior of Virtue]

At the end of the day, Fen is running a business. He has employees who need the money they make from the game.

All the more reason to have a contingency plan. They can keep their Patreon account up and still start a second account on another crowd funding site. And Patreon has already fucked them over once. How long until it happens again?

 

[null_blank]

It's so funny that Sargon was the breaking point when it goes so much deeper than some dude getting kicked of Patreon.

The rabbit hole goes deep and goes into territory that you'd hear on Infowars.

But the evidence is there.

 

[Evil]

All the more reason to have a contingency plan. They can keep their Patreon account up and still start a second account on another crowd funding site. And Patreon has already fucked them over once. How long until it happens again?

That's not a solution in the slightest.

The problem will always be that any payment processing site will eventually get demands from the banks/credit card companies, demanding a crackdown.

But let's suppose for a moment, that Fen did exactly as you said and sets up an account on another site. He makes the announcement on the blog. He can expect that some people might make the move from Patreon to this other site. He might also expect that some people might decide to end their support. Already, that's a decrease in support, why? Because simply put, people don't like change. They don't like it when they have to switch accounts or change from one site to another. Now let's suppose that Patreon finally drops the hammer and axes Fen. Will people magically switch en masse? Or will it be more like a slow trickle of support over weeks, possibly months? Which do you think is more realistic? Because I can tell you its going to be the trickle. Meanwhile, Fen has been deprived of his major source of income and possibly has to cut some corners, or even make a couple of employees redundant. All the while, he's wondering when this new payment site is going to drop the boot on him.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a backup. What I'm saying is that "going to another site" is not a solution, it just delays the problem and then its back to Square One.

 

[Warrior of Virtue]

The problem will always be that any payment processing site will eventually get demands from the banks/credit card companies, demanding a crackdown.

Agreed. We need to find a way to cut out the middle man. From what I've heard, some people are trying to set up a crowd funding service that is 100% independent so fingers crossed on that one.

He might also expect that some people might decide to end their support.

They don't like it when they have to switch accounts or change from one site to another.

They wouldn't have to switch though. If the Patreon account is still open, then they can continue to support Fen there. Are you saying Fen's supporters would bail on him out of spite just because he offered them an alternative?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a backup. What I'm saying is that "going to another site" is not a solution, it just delays the problem and then its back to Square One.

Then what do you suggest they do?

 

[Klaptrap]

I'm curious, what's this wondrous new Patreon-like called?

 

[Warrior of Virtue]

I'm curious, what's this wondrous new Patreon-like called?

I don't think it has a name yet. If it does, I haven't heard it. But from what I have heard, I think it's going to be based on cryptocurrency which should, hopefully, make it much harder for tech giants to fuck with it.

 

[Klaptrap]

Ah okay, so it's even dumber than I initially assumed it was going to be.

 

[BubbleLord]

How about everyone not freak out? If/when Fen feels that the platform is threatened, I'm sure the game will relocate to some form of alternate payment. Worrying about it when you guys aren't the ones handling the accounts in the first place won't help anyone. There's merchandise and I'm like 99% positive that once upon a time, Fen used PayPal to handle donations; it'd probably default to that if Patreon went under/forced it to relocate.

All the games being developed within this forum don't have the economy or need to try and create alternative platforms; if they present themselves and there's a path/safe reason to open up other methods, it'll happen. But we all know that realistically there isn't alternatives to even really make a back-up beyond using PayPal directly or something. So until there are (these "rumored" ones for example) then having the discussion is just fear-mongering or panicking for the sake of doing it.

 

[Klaptrap]

no you dont understand are free speech is at risk so we need to team up with Lobsterman and EnLiGtHeNeD CeNtRiStS otherwise the man will come for our furry transformation fetish porn game

 

[BubbleLord]

no you dont understand are free speech is at risk so we need to team up with Lobsterman and EnLiGtHeNeD CeNtRiStS otherwise the man will come for our furry transformation fetish porn game

The man already has; Patreon's Code of Conduct crackdown has effectively cut content from TiTS. Their fears are genuine but they're literally trying to ask porn game devs to use their public face to build an established alternative payment processor.

Patreon is on a very bad and censorious road whether you agree or not; this is why most writers and creators in the Writer pool dislike it. But there isn't an alternative for us to viably swap to as of posting this. All we can do is wait. So stop with your centrist bashing you winger-fringer and stop trying to act as if they're stupid for suggesting the idea we should be worried. The only reason they're stupid is for assuming there's anything the developers and writers (much less the community) can do about it until there's alternatives and precedence to seek out said alternatives.

As long as Patreon works and there's nothing else, of course we'd have to use it to keep development and upkeep going. But I don't think you'd find anyone who wouldn't love to jump ship if it brought back content we were forced to remove at risk of the games getting utterly raped by censorship.

 

[Freedom_Internet]

So until there are (these "rumored" ones for example) then having the discussion is just fear-mongering or panicking for the sake of doing it.

I will admit I did this somewhat out of Panic but not just for the sake of it. Other Creators have or are getting hurt and now I see Fen & Co is looking at the chopping block, which was kinda the last straw for me. So no there is a reason to have this discussion and its not out of fear-mongering or panic.

All the games being developed within this forum don't have the economy or need to try and create alternative platforms

Half correct and I wasn't asking them to create an alternative simple find one. They do exist. Like SubscribeStar but that seems to be YouTube related and plus Playpal is already targeting that site so who is to know how long it will last. And as for need well you already said by Patreons code of conduct crackdown they are being targeted now. If that doesn't say they need an alternative then I don't know what does.

And anyway after addressing Evil I am past the point of asking them to find something as I am providing them something else.

The only reason they're stupid is for assuming there's anything the developers and writers (much less the community) can do about it until there's alternatives and precedence to seek out said alternatives.

First of all ow you could have at least my ideas were stupid, like I told null_blank attack my ideas not me. Second yeah the devs probably can't do anything right now. But we can and I am disappointed that you think we can't. Again this something that actually needs discussing and talking about. This is something that can be achieved we need simply work together. Hell after posting this I think I'll go research how to open and maintain and manage a bank since that seems to be where the core problem is. Also yes I know its going to be difficult as hell and take some time if there is to be hope it gets off the ground.

-----

I get it, we're a handful of what 5 to 20 in a sea of trillions plus the big corps that want to control everything? Yeah seems scary and that nothing can be done. But something can. Once again I point out history proves this, in this case in the form of Mark Zuckerberg Co-founding facebook when we already had MySpace, Jack Dorsey, Noah Glass, Biz Stone, and Evan Williams, made Twitter when we had Facebook, hell Jack Conte, and Sam Yam, when we already had Paypal. Yeah somewhat famous now because of their platforms but guess what they were average motherfuckers just like us before then. So I believe we can do something about whats going on we just need to start somewhere.

 

[Evil]

I will admit I did this somewhat out of Panic but not just for the sake of it.

To be fair, it was more like you came running in, screaming "fire, fire!" and appearing to be mildly annoyed that we aren't flailing our limbs in a panicked manner.

There's no point in discussing alternatives, because right now, there are none.

Going to another site won't solve the problem, it will only delay it.

Switching to a different payment method will not solve anything.

What needs to change is the banks' attitude towards adult games and the like. That is the problem. Everything else is just trimming the branches, but at the end of the day, the banks will be the core problem and then its back to square one.

 

[null_blank]

Why do you think it's hard to make a Patreon analogue? It's not.

That's not what the problem is and your insistence the magical free market will fix what is going on leads me to believe how little you understand of this entire situation. The game is rigged.

Bill processing is the issue, because banks have gotten involved in politics for their own self-gain. Mastercard has become the final boss of the Internet. Bitchute and now Subscribestar were some of the first victims because they were competitors to Pateron. Paypal and Stripe pulled support from both platforms. If you follow the money you'll see ex-Paypal people working at Mastercard and vice-versa. There are also ties between ex-Mastercard c-level people and Patreon as well. Totally a coincidence you see, no collusion there, these payment processors just happen to have a vested interest in Patreon and destroy their competition by accident LOL Totally not a banking cartel guys LMAO

Sure, you can write your congressman and be like that lawyer and sue for anti-trust stuff. But that's about all you can do.
The pendulum has not swung in your favor, this current administration is weak as fuck when it comes to corporate interests vs the people.