Kitsune Idea (The Tyranny of Keros)

[PalletTown]

This is just a random half formed idea I had. When a lot of people on the forum talk about the kitsunes, the main complaint is that the kitsunes feel like they are in their own game with little to no connection to the broader story. So, I had an idea to maybe rectify that.

My idea is that Tollus need something from the Kitsune den. He finds out that there are a lot of disaffected kitsune youth in the den. The main issue with the youths is that they feel trapped by the rigid den strictures and want to be freer to pursue own destinies. Why should they hold themselves to a homeland that not even their grandparents ever stepped foot in? In fact, your presence really infuriates them because you, a foreigner, are freer in the den than they are.

Tollus decides to use an old tactic from his playbook and decided to use the youths as his pawns. Tollus promises them that if they follow him that they would be free from the stifling rules by removing Keros's control over their soul. (Tollus is technically correct in that Keros will no longer be in control of your soul if you no longer have a soul and become a kitsune youkai.)

In a disturbing parallel to what happened to Hawkthorne years ago, the den suddenly gets ambushed by their own youth. You have to defend the den with the help of their loyal denizens such as Miko, Mai, Azami, Nakano, and Kazuo. How helpful they are depends on how many den side quests you did. In this battle, you can retreat a space to get a full heal and a new kitsune partner, but you can only do this so many times. Each round you face a horde of kitsune youths and you and your party are under massive debuffs due to the fact that you are trying to solve this non-lethally. Essentially, you are going through den of foxes in reverse.

The golden ending of this side quest is that while Tollus get what he wants and a small handful of the kitsune youths do become youkai and join Tollus, the den and the rest of the youths are saved. Komari is obviously distraught by what happened and decides that the den cannot protect itself by being completely isolationist. Komari appoints a couple of the kitsunes, I'm thinking Hotaru and Tetsuya, to be ambassadors to Khor'minos and The Winter City for tentative cooperation against the demon threat.

Again, this is just a random idea I had. What do you guys think?

 

[Ace Hangman]

I think the idea of the kitsune being more integrated is a fine idea. I think that's actually something that is being done with the Champ's presence (or not, depending on if they choose to). You free their princess, you show that not all foreigners are out to kill them, and you learn that not all kitsune are monsters.

If I had to play contrarian, purely to bring up points so they can be addressed, mind you: I think Winter City could be an ally. They are close enough, but they're also isolationist and their reach is depleted and their lands need to be resettled, and they have a schism amongst their people they are working out, as well as a bankrupt treasury. What could they do for the kitsune den? Patrol the woods? I think they already do that. And so do the kitsune, they may have few soldiers, but they have their spies and operatives. And the leothran tribe. Old Forest is actually one of the safest places around, only the ever-present imps seem to be able to move around easily. Your own patrols and possibly harpies also watch the roads and surroundings.

Khor'minos is even farther away. Maybe they could send an engineer and work crews to rebuild the old stone causeway that links Winter City to the Temple of Fire, but that would be more helpful to the Winter City. The kitsune don't want them building walls or fortifications or such, they live in a magic tree. Send a bunch of bullmen to live with them? They are fighting their own war. Send them weapons? They have their own and they aren't likely to use minotaur weapons or armor (and they can probably get them through their own Waystone). Nakano would chafe under that, since it would prove he was incapable of fulfilling his own duty. I am not sure on kitsune procedures regarding ending themselves, but he'd definitely probably leave in shame (and one certain Kinu might feel the need to leave with him, assuming she truly loves him, or not, comes down to duty and obligation). Not that I care what Nakano thinks, just mentioning my thoughts.

Spoiler: The Plan

As for Tollus's plan, it's an idea, but I think it would not hit so hard being so identical to what happened in Hawkethorne. I don't think kitsune culture works the same as lupine or the Hawkethorne culture. There might be some disaffected youths, but Komari is well-informed and they have different cultural outlooks. They see their obligations and stations in different ways and Tollus can't just pop into the den like he could Hawkethorne,

Spoiler

him being Carmen's cousin and her letting him be there without acting. She could have stopped him, but she literally took a view to not raise a hand or spell in anger or against another (Komari has no such restriction and she's likely far stronger)

. I think most players probably get upset with how Sanders and everyone in town acted, and seeing it happen in an even more unlikely place and way would have the wrong effect. Also, while I am sure kitsune can be corrupted and I believe one is well-known to work with the Cult, or at least Kasyrra's faction, I think having no soul makes them much harder to actually corrupt spiritually. Even an evil kitsune, likely still has a disciplined and spiritual side, also, they're probably less likely to be swayed by the sex cults offerings, other than feeding on people... but that's still something they've been taught from birth to control and regulate and even if they became ki-feeding feral vampire vixens... they'd be just as dangerous to those around them.

I can't see Tollus flat out corrupting kitsune (on the level of the centaurs or Hawkethorne kids) or infiltrating the den (likely Whisper or someone else could), but in most cases the den is hard to get into without someone leaving the door open (and you can bet someone get punished for you getting in) and breaking in through their shrine gate waystone would put them right into Kero's Shrine (and would probably be unlikely depending on certain other events that sabotaged the kitsune Shrine Gates by Rafael if that happened, since they reinforced security afterwards). Plus, Keros is one of the more active gods, especially at this outpost. He has dinner regularly with Komari and her family and it's highly unlikely anything happens under his nose or in the hearts of his followers without him sensing at least part of their hopes and inner feelings. He is the God of Trickery and I can't see Tollus just slinking around or outfoxing him. Keros isn't passive like the others, even if he is isolationist, he would swat Tollus like a fly because at that point he's invaded one of his domains.

Unlike Hawkethorne, kitsune aren't basically humans with fur whose only option against their children would be bonking them on the head with clubs. They're magical creatures, they have other ways to incapacitate people, they're usually accomplished shapechangers, so they're much harder to fool that way or more likely to see someone else trying to fool them (they may not all be tricksters, but they have to be cunning in lots of different ways to feed). Komari, Miko, and Mai are probably much stronger than Sanders magically (10 years ago) and he might have been a force to be reckoned with, but they have much broader power and manipulation than his method of smiting evil (which he didn't want to do). They have stunning tails, foxfire, energy draining and leeching to knock youths unconscious (and the older ones are more powerful). Komari can literally change someone's body and mindset in moments.

That said, I could see him kidnapping or catching some kitsune in the woods, and holding them hostage and not feeding them until they go feral or become dangerous (to everyone), but that would have to be for a purpose. Maybe it's a distraction to allow him to slip in or send in his mecian or kitsune assassins, but what would they be after? Tollus has more chance of sneaking into Evergreen's Manor and corrupting her daughters (which is very little chance).

I actually could see an attempted ploy, but it should actually start with Keros sending the Champ after one of Tollus' lieutenants or hideouts. Keros probably saw Tollus' ploy a mile away and sent a bunch of 'not youths' (more competent infiltrators that just glamoured themselves to look youthful) and made him think he was corrupting them (or the cult's message was being effective) and made a fake artifact and had it delivered to them purely to find the base... and he tells the Champ where it ended up and sends them in to raid the place and activatee that artifact, requiring the touch a kitsune tail, which the Champ might have, or they have to bring Kiyoko, or they have to link up with the kistune infiltrators hiding or sabotaging the cultist compound elsewhere and bring one of them along in the special companion slot.

As for what the fake artifact does, it would probably be something suitably clever and awesome, like converting some of the cultists into kitsunes, like... little baby kits... and they're adopted by the den, as Kero's way of saying, "You like converting huh? I saw you coming a mile away." Of course, Tollus wasn't on site, there's a message that he got delayed (at some other plot site for later) and so you just took out a lieutenant and some local cultists.

I definitely wouldn't mind more plot for kitsunes, I just don't know the whole road map or what Tollus has ultimately planned (other than the obvious controlling everything).

 

[HughMann]

I'd say the best way to bring them in would be conflict with the druids/winter city reclaiming territory, not even involving the cult/Kas.

The Kitsune Den is already a giant mess of events that can be triggered in wild orders that make no sense, weather it's Kiros asking you to accept Kiyoko's request that you have not heard, but the PC still says they have. Having so many foxes being added at different times, leading to some acting like they (might have) gotten there after you did (or at least you know everyone in the den and they know you). Hell, in the latest public version when you are asked to talk introduce yourself, the foxes you fought are already accounted for and you can do their 'first talk' after first Free Kiyoko event.

If the entire game is meant to be finished in half a year or so (once in 1.0) the only reason Kas would be involved might be if you take Keros' deal and she wants revenge.

I like a lot of the writing in this game, don't get me wrong, but some of the writing is very linear and some more 'open world.' The Den feels like it has a correct order to it and it meshes oddly with the outside world/events.