If your parents decide to genderbend you before you are even born...

Wily Rodent

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2021
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...You know, you are truly fucked.

So I just learned that the gender, the doctor uses for dialogue during character creation (in specific affinity and upbringing) depend on the femininity score. Nothing wrong with that in principle... I don't even know if I should call it a bug or just cruelty on part of the people who drew up Captain Steele's genetic mapping.
Basically, if you choose a male who happens to be a bit feminine looking, the doctor is gonna stamp him as Victor's "daughter" before he is even conceived (and has any say in the matter.)

So what does that make Captain Steele in that specific case? Born male, designated female at birth? Does this count as child abuse?
 

Animefan666

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2020
818
313
In this game, designer babies are a thing. If you have enough money, anything is possible. The morality of it is debatable at best. I remember the femininity score being something like mid 50's mininum with a small window for androgynous. Game mechanic wise, born female.
 

Wily Rodent

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2021
75
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35
In this game, designer babies are a thing. If you have enough money, anything is possible. The morality of it is debatable at best. I remember the femininity score being something like mid 50's mininum with a small window for androgynous. Game mechanic wise, born female.
Maybe it would be easier to just not use gendered language in those two dialogues. Instead of "son" or "daughter", just using "child" would probably suffice.
 

MeloPuss

Member
Jun 6, 2021
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i don't really see how that's much more of a problem than how regular trans people are born here in realityland. so long as you're assigned the wrong gender does it really matter what that wrong gender was based on?

in this setting people are progressive enough to let you just be anything you want, kinda hard to keep gender essentialism going when even your species could be up in the air. safe to say if you were gender bent at birth you can just bend it right back as soon as you realize the problem. it's literally gonna be like those progressive dad memes.

one would think in far future settings like this society would have just gone the abolitionist route and get rid of gender all together, since the genders serve as useful indicators of....fuck all. but genders are far too ingrained in our language and culture to comfortably write without. reality does suck sometimes.
 

Wint3rRyd3r

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
929
2,159
No, because you are insanely rich. Victor could have declared Steele Jr. as a gelatinous blob and thousands of ass kissers would agree with him.

I'm a little surprised that's not an option.

IRL, there's waaaaaaaaaaaaay too many variables and different culture and climate to account for. And as for the TiTS universe, every physical trait can be altered so it's probably not a big deal for any of them since it can be changed so easily.

Damn it, anytime a rich person does something weird then they're "eccentric". But if I do something weird I get arrested and get a court mandated psychiatrist who always looks mad when I show up and stifles my fun. Life is so unfair.
 

Wily Rodent

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2021
75
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i don't really see how that's much more of a problem than how regular trans people are born here in realityland. so long as you're assigned the wrong gender does it really matter what that wrong gender was based on?
There is so much wrong with this sentence. You aren't born a trans person. By definition, you don't become trans until you make the conscious decision to transition. What's assigned on birth isn't a gender but sex, which is strictly based on the set of sexual organs. Assigning a gender to someone who has just been born (or yet to be conceived as is the case here) basically takes away that person's agency to choose their own identity, as far as such a thing exists anyway. You can choose whatever you want but it won't change a thing unless the people around you go along with it. Identity isn't determined by an individual but lived out through the interactions of the individual and the group.

The tricky thing about gender and gender roles is that evolutionary effects have ingrained that so much into both our biology and society at large (look up the field of evolutionary psychology, it's interesting) that I'm almost certain they are here to stay at least until biomods at the level of TiTS come along. If you don't believe me, look at Scandinavia. They have abolished almost every barrier that would affect a woman to choose the profession they want and they have the least diverse gender distribution in their workforce in the world, presumably because it's an affluent society and no woman is forced to become an engineer or technician just to put food on the table so they are free to choose professions more in line with their psychological and hormonal makeup.

Whew, we are beginning to veer off topic here. We are supposed to be talking about space smut here, not have a sociological debate about the role of gender in modern society. Though if you want to continue the discussion, I'm certainly down for it. One of my unfortunate personality traits is that I never back down from a discussion, no matter how pedantic it would be to carry on.
 
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MeloPuss

Member
Jun 6, 2021
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What's assigned on birth isn't a gender but sex
first of all, sex is not assigned. you don't assign someone a Y chromosome. gender can be and is commonly assigned at or before birth, when, for example, a couple decides to refer to their child as their son or daughter when the scans come in. i agree with you that it shouldn't be assigned at birth and we should just do the medieval thing of not gendering children until the children themselves begin to understand what genders are, but as things are right now, people's gender are often assigned at birth, and being assigned a gender they don't end up identifying with is a common experience among trans people. in fact, it is the defining experience.

The tricky thing about gender and gender roles is that evolutionary effects have ingrained that so much into both our biology and society at large (look up the field of evolutionary biology, it's interesting) that I'm almost certain they are here to stay at least until biomods at the level of TiTS come along. If you don't believe me, look at Scandinavia. They have abolished almost every barrier that would affect a woman to choose the profession they want and they have the least diverse gender distribution in their workforce in the world, presumably because it's an affluent society and no woman is forced to become an engineer or technician just to put food on the table so they are free to choose professions more in line with their psychological and hormonal makeup.
any time people bring up evolutionary psychology i have to brace myself a little, doubly so when they confuse it with evolutionary biology. doing my best to be concise, psychology doesn't have fields, it has approaches. the evolutionary approach stand in equal grounds with the cognitive and sociocultural approaches. some behaviors, such as morning sickness, are more easily explained by one approach than the others, but broad topics such as gender is studied with all 3 approaches in mind. human behavior can't be simply attributed to any one factor and all three approaches must be examined in order to get the full picture.

in Margret Mead's book Sex and Temperament in Three Primitive Societies, published in 1935, Mead described 3 tribes with vastly different gender roles. one where the men and women displayed so-called "traditional" traits, where men are aggressive and domineering and the women mellow and submissive, another where it is the reverse, and one more where both genders are competitive and aggressive. in other unrelated studies, traditional identities outside of male and female have been found as well in cultures through out history, most notably in the Philippines where many local words describing third traditional gender identities exist in various tongues.

there is undeniably is an evolutionary and biological aspect to gender roles and identity. but the existence of cognitive and sociocultural aspects are equally undeniable. available scientific evidence does not support the idea that our current gender roles are the inevitable result of biology rather than one of many possibilities a society could arrive at based on a variety of factors. to say that our binary system is created by some force of nature would imply that all of its exceptions were somehow mistakes, and further imply that there is a purpose or goal to evolution from which mistakes can deviate from. both of these statements display a lack of reflexivity and would get you some disturbing packages from less than professional biologists and psychologists. the more reasonable assumption is that our idea of what is natural and "simply biological" is heavily influenced by the biases stemming from the euro-centric roots of modern science. this is one of the core criticisms towards evolutionary analysis. further research is required to determine the extent to which biology affect gender roles in society.

in order for the Scandinavia example to hold water, it will have to operate under the assumption that there is zero cultural bias, contemporary or historical, in terms of gender role, and that Scandinavia is not influenced by cultures that may have said bias. only then could one attribute the entirety of their workforce imbalance to biological factors. it's...a naive assumption, to say the least. even in the article itself, the phenomenon is attributed purely to the removal of economic factors. Scandinavian women could and likely still are motivated by historical cultural perceptions of how a woman should act and what roles they should play in society, even if all the hard barriers were gone.

Scandinavia isn't some isolated nordic paradise where no injustices or bigotry exist in the present or past and no words of such things come in from outside. even without systematic enforcement or economic incentive, cultural expectations can drastically impact behavior, as demonstrated by Steele & Aronson's study on stereotype threat (steele lul), the result of which showed black students who hold negative stereotypes about their race perform noticeably worse overall than those who don't.

there is also evidence for behaviors being impacted by cultures outside of your own, as can be found in the existence of culture-specific disorders, symptom repertoires, and their ability to spread to other cultures. if even disorders can spread across cultures, values and expectations are likely to as well.

until we can remove entirely other factors and examine biological factors by itself, conclusions like "women just don't like STEM due to their hormones" can't be made responsibly.

in other words, further research is required to determine the extent to which biology affect gender roles in society.

that last sentence is repeated, because it had to be. it's the type of line you'll find shockingly frequently in papers and essays. the academia of science doesn't draw solid "x because y" type conclusions. only pundits do so, either for an agenda or simply brevity. modern science operates under the knowledge that the system is a complex machine that's barely holding together, but is functional at its core. all the rusty joints and inefficient mechanisms will eventually break the machine down, and the job of a scientist is to replace parts when they creak, preserving slivers of truth and shaving away the untruth once enough evidence against them surfaces. this process is more formally known as paradigm shift. in sillier terms, scientists gave birth to a slime baby and are still trying to figure out what's the baby and what's the bath water. and ho boi does evolutionary psychology have a lot of bath water. the presumptions made about gender roles using evo psych are just that, presumptions, and ones with enough scientific evidence against them to justify being reconsidered.

in the interview at the end of the Scandinavian study article, a solution was proposed by one of the researchers to improve female representation in STEM:

“If governments want to increase women’s participation in STEM, a more effective strategy might be to target the girls who are clearly being lost from the STEM pathway – those for whom science and maths are their best subjects and who enjoy it but still don’t choose it,”

Note that it does not say "invest in biomods and give them cocks."

scientific literature has a history of being misconstrued by the general public and causing wide spread tragedy. the story of that MMR vaccine paper would be downright comical if the cover price wasn't paid in human lives. now that religion has dulled significantly as a political tool, science without critical thinking stand to do the most harm. i would stay wary when i hear claims this broad made with no internal criticism or reflection, and stay especially wary of making them.
 
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RhapsodicHotshot

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2018
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Its not even genderbeding if you are barely a fetus.

Personaly, I would love if my parents chose to make me futa. On the other hand, idk if I would be comfortable enough to do this kind of changes to my child, I'd let nature do its thing and later, with transformatives, they can become whatever they want.
 
Aug 4, 2021
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Emily Smith said:
If this could happen in RL I bet alot of people would do it.
Something very similar, but without gender interference, is in the Gattaca movie. A world of the future where genetic manipulation and in vtro are commonplace. The most surprising thing about this movie is. As part of the advertising campaign, there were (fake) advertisements that encouraged people to call and make genetic changes to their offspring. The campaign was a complete success, thousands of people called by the proposal. So it's irrefutable proof that almost every parent would like to be like Victor "personalizing" the future CEO of Steele Tech.
 
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Raginmund

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Aug 21, 2021
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I could understand possibly altering fetuses for removing the risk of illnesses / disabilities / mutations - and only in the scenario whereby it's 100% safe to do so.
However, I find the prospect of changing one's unborn child's gender (especially to seemingly suit the parents narrative / wishes) to be quite morally fucked. That is definitely operating in the realm of non-consent, as an unborn child / children cannot consent. It's largely the exact same argument as when parents circumcise their sons when they are young and don't get a say in the matter.
 

SeriousBlueJewel

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Nov 5, 2018
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in this setting people are progressive enough to let you just be anything you want, kinda hard to keep gender essentialism going when even your species could be up in the air. safe to say if you were gender bent at birth you can just bend it right back as soon as you realize the problem. it's literally gonna be like those progressive dad memes.
That is only for humans who are known as mod crazy. Ausar expect you to stay ausar changing your gender sure, going full furry pitchforks and torches.
 

SmithEK

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Apr 20, 2021
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I could understand possibly altering fetuses for removing the risk of illnesses / disabilities / mutations - and only in the scenario whereby it's 100% safe to do so.
However, I find the prospect of changing one's unborn child's gender (especially to seemingly suit the parents narrative / wishes) to be quite morally fucked. That is definitely operating in the realm of non-consent, as an unborn child / children cannot consent. It's largely the exact same argument as when parents circumcise their sons when they are young and don't get a say in the matter.
You can also argue about betrothals and shit.. yeah the child didn't consent but it was the norm in certain circles.
 

Raginmund

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2021
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You can also argue about betrothals and shit.. yeah the child didn't consent but it was the norm in certain circles.
I guess, but that would be somewhat of a different context than what is being seemingly implied. An arranged marriage might be in place before a child is even born, true, but that's not necessarily the exact same comparison as directly altering a child - because while in both scenarios the child wouldn't be able to consent - the one makes a direct and unalterable decision (changing an unborn child's gender / parents circumcising their sons whilst they're still babies) whereas the other is simply a supposed agreement between two parties.

This arranged marriage would then most likely be something that the child would be somewhat aware of whilst growing up - and if they object to it they can possibly state as such (not always the case, true, but they can at least disagree with it in their perspective and reserve the right to have such an attitude, even if they don't tell anyone else). If they potentially have the means they can possibly escape the situation - or if they have met someone else besides their betrothed - they could possibly elope.
I get that that's not always possible or definitively an option, but I'd argue it's definitely at least more possible than the alternative (an unborn child's gender being changed to suit the narrative of their parents / parents circumcising their sons whilst they're still babies - because that is something that the child would not have any means to prevent from occurring - only possibly reversing by operations or some such).

In any case, just because it may be the norm in certain circles (or may have been the norm in certain circles) / instances doesn't necessarily make it all the more justified. It comes down to thinking about others and what they want, not what one wants for others in a subjective sense.
 

Satyrs-Maze

Active Member
Apr 2, 2021
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this is a society where with enough money you can look like whatever you want there social rules are different from ours body monification is seen like just changing outfits in the context of the setting no it isn't child abuse your steel can grow up take a shot or a pill and be whatever he/ she wants but using our social rules based on how our society works yes some people might say its moraly wrong