I think negative evasion should be handled differently.

Discussion in 'Trials in Tainted Space' started by Zerva, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. Zerva

    Zerva Well-Known Member

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    Mar 25, 2016
    tl;dr it's really dumb to take additional damage as punishment for wearing armors with additional defense. In some cases equipping a bikini would give me the same level of defense as plate armor it appears.

    not tl;dr It's not a huge emergency or nothing but I do feel a level of concern over the evasion changes. Obviously it all depends how things are tuned. Getting hit more often makes sense to me, but taking more damage directly seems a bit counter productive to the reason you give items a negative evasion score.

    In my mind the entire point of not going for evasion is because you are going to be wearing heavier armor or weapons. Example: The Frostbane Plate has great defense (15) but lowers evasion by 2. You are now going to take additional damage as punishment for choosing a set you wanted to use to incur less damage.

    With that armor alone? +6% damage done.

    With a heavy machine gun like Aegislight (which is supposed to give you fortification and additional shields) or Saurmorian Railgun? You are now taking an additional 12-15% additional damage done to you, entirely defeating the point in the former's fortification stat.

    And god forbid you equip the Suarmorian hammer and get slapped with 15% additional damage for that alone. So in other words, wearing The Frostbane Plate, Chaurmine's hammer and weapon, you will be incurred a 30% higher damage intake to your HP unless you dedicate your accessory slot to the jetpack on Uveto to negate it.

    And that right there is my biggest concern, the only real workaround for the problem is to equip either melee/ranged weapons that give you more evasion, or wear a bikini instead of heavy armor while using a machinegun. If I am wearing heavy armor, a railgun, and a fuckoff huge hammer, I should feel like an tanky Juggernaut, bullets bouncing off me as I charge or mow things down. Just as a player with light weapons and armor should feel untouchable, evading and dodging while landing in those awesome critical hits for example.

    By all means, penalize the heavy stuff with the inability to dodge or inability to crit as done with the Railgun, but taking additional damage as a result of that is nonsensical to me due to the entire point in equipping the gear in the first place. If you are determined to keep going down this path, at least give either strength stat itself or mercs the ability to negate the negative evasion given by heavy items since we will have the power/training to actually lift them.

    That or make heavy armors vastly stronger and the fortification stat on the Aegislight as well so they aren't just pointless unless you are using a jetpack.
     
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  2. BasedBuckNasty

    BasedBuckNasty Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how I feel about it yet. Though, I make focused builds anyways. Either melee or ranged. Which makes sacrifices easier should it come to that. There is also 'hidden' evasion mechanics I think or it is implied. Like, your reflex stat and riposte perk. I dodge quite a bit more than my 1% should allow, you know, unless I am just really lucky.
    The only real trouble I have ever had was fighting multiple enemies with a smuggler.
     
  3. ScarletteKnight

    ScarletteKnight Well-Known Member

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    Dec 19, 2015
    I didn't know this was a thing, my Evasion is always above 0. But yeah, trying to tank shouldn't make you take extra damage.
     
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  4. Xeivous

    Xeivous Well-Known Member

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    Sep 21, 2015
    At the very least, Mercs should get a perk that renders them immune to the mechanic and if it affects the damage that shields take then techs should get a perk that nullifies that.
     
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  5. Zerva

    Zerva Well-Known Member

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    Mar 25, 2016
    I tend to play Merc, and this really concerns me, BasedBuckNasty. It might be a bit knee-jerk but here's my base logic: Smuggler's main defensive stat is basically evasion, they are better at dodging and not taking that damage at all, giving light armors more benefit.. A techie is best at making their shield tough enough they don't need to dodge or rely on heavy armors.

    Mercs, on the other hand, don't get boosted evasion or boosted shields, their 'main' way of defense is through their HP. They don't get -more- HP, they just get a boost to their kinetic defense and only their kinetic defense. With this change:


    0.7.182 Changelog:
    • Having a negative evasion statistic now carries penalties. For every overall point of negative evasion, HP damage taken is increased by 3%.
    This means if someone with any other kind of damage decides to attack a merc in heavy armor, they have no real defense to it once their shields drop, as they don't get inherent evasion boosts or bigger shields.
     
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  6. null_blank

    null_blank Well-Known Member

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    Oct 29, 2015
    Mercs aren't HP tanks anyway. They're DPS monkeys. Kill faster and everything will be fine.
     
  7. Zerva

    Zerva Well-Known Member

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    A totally fair point, I can see that perspective. Other hand: If we are using the really powerful heavy weapons that cannot crit due to their high damage, you're going to be punished with higher HP damage, that's my main issue.

    Of course this means nothing to a techie, since their shields are chunky enough it shouldn't matter.

    Edit: In fact, they even get a perk that gives their armors 20% boosts to their defense baseline.
     
  8. BasedBuckNasty

    BasedBuckNasty Well-Known Member

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    Nov 5, 2017
    You could substitute the new Prototype Shield back for the Reaper Mk1 (which has higher shield defense and kinetic defense). I only use it, even with its evasion negative to offset the fire negative of frostbane plate. Really, all you need is kinetic or fire protection (very common, plasma). When an electric attack enemy comes along, the techie will be screwed with no lube.
     
  9. null_blank

    null_blank Well-Known Member

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    Oct 29, 2015
    I'll most likely roll up a new ranged merc to see how this changes player quality of life. It might not mean much given most gear doesn't give you a negative evade bonus anyway.

    The Lash cannon is totally worth it though.
     
  10. Zerva

    Zerva Well-Known Member

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    Mar 25, 2016
    Personally I'd use the Lash Cannon on a techie, since energy is better for them, and mercs are better with kinetic weapons since they boost those damages.

    My general build is a ranged merc using Chaurmine's gun, and the heaviest armor I can find. Cluster grenades for group fights, of course. I like the 'space marine' fantasy style to that kind of setup. When I see an item with negatives to evasion my thoughts were 'good' because having that negative to me meant it was better in other areas, and those areas were the parts I wanted to focus in on! With evasion in its current state, while not -terrible- it does kind nerf the point of heavy armors existing unless you specifically build to negate it. The option to just not even bother with evasion should be an option in my mind, so long as you have the defense to back it up.

    I don't want this to get -worse- when/if power armor gets added, lord know how badly that will get slapped by negative evasion scores. I like the idea of being a tanky but simple fighter, y'know? Mercs are supposed to be trained in the use of military-class and powerful stuff in my opinion, like how we get to use a tank during Shade's quest.

    Oh, having thought on it a bit harder, I think it's safe to consider them health tank-y if not health tanks directly. Their skill Second Wind is basically a last stand that recovers half of their max HP and stamina, it's great.
     
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  11. BasedBuckNasty

    BasedBuckNasty Well-Known Member

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    Nov 5, 2017
    Don't sleep on headbutt (though I would trade headbutt for mag binders in a heartbeat). Kinda hard for Dr. Lash to shoot me when he has been sundered and then headbutted. That anus would be mine fair and square. I used a crystal shard, fyn fencing lessons, frostbane plate, prototype shield, and a salamander long coat. I think he was doing 12-16 damage a hit, if he even could hit me. I straight up massacred him with the Flash Blade, without needing second wind.

    I get what you are saying though.
     
  12. Zerva

    Zerva Well-Known Member

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    Mar 25, 2016
    Ooh, nice. I tend to go the ranged route and use the Aegislight or Suarmorian guns. Since they physically cannot crit to start with, I wear thermal underwear which give me negative crit, which means nothing to me!
     
  13. BasedBuckNasty

    BasedBuckNasty Well-Known Member

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    Nov 5, 2017
    Maybe some nice person will do like Petra's Whip with the railcannon and remove the crit block from it for merc classes?
    I personally have the Aegis LMG equipped myself for the shield bonus. I imagine it like a N7 Typhoon all snug on my back.
     
  14. ScarletteKnight

    ScarletteKnight Well-Known Member

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    Dec 19, 2015
    Shield and Armor resistances are separate, use the Salamander Longcoat to negate FBP -fire resist.

    Also, I don't really think Techies are fucked if an Electric enemy shows up, mostly because of the shield's Defense score and the fact that I have 315 shielding and a shitload of damage now.


    But Mercs are most definitely HP tanks: they have more of it, better defenses for it, and regenerate it just like a TechSpec's shield, while Smuggler's have ridiculous Evasion and average shield/armor.
     
  15. BasedBuckNasty

    BasedBuckNasty Well-Known Member

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    Nov 5, 2017
    Now I know. It all still worked out. What I said makes sense because it doesn't say negative % for shields or armor. It just says total.

    Techie is easy mode. Auto shield recharge, drone, multi-attacks, armor and gun tweaks. You have 415 shields and hp compared to a mercs (with aegis and prototype} 455. Techie would be crippled by EMP, one would think.

    My techie.
    Melee Weapon: Widow’s Kiss
    Ranged Weapon: Apollo Plasma Rifle
    Armor: Ratty Armor
    Shield: Prototype Pirate Shield
    Accessory: Explorers Cloak



    Combat Statistics
    Physical Combat
    * Accuracy Bonus, Melee: 8 %
    * Accuracy Bonus, Ranged: 12 %
    * Critical Chance, Melee: 10 %
    * Critical Chance, Ranged: 10 %
    * Defense, Armor: 15
    * Defense, Shields: 12
    * Defense, Lust: 8.8
    * Evasion Bonus: 10 %
    * Fortification: 16
    * Melee Damage, Kinetic: 29
    * Ranged Damage, Burning: 59.8
    * Resistance, Kinetic: 30 %
    * Resistance, Electric: -25 %
    * Resistance, Burning: 15 %
    Sexual Combat
    * Melee Damage, Tease: 18
    * Sexiness: 6
    No offense, but I consider the Tech as Easy difficulty, the merc as Normal. and the Smuggler as Hard.
     
    #15 BasedBuckNasty, Jun 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  16. ScarletteKnight

    ScarletteKnight Well-Known Member

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    Dec 19, 2015
    Yeah, it's weird they don't separate it.

    Pfft, guns... I was a melee Techie even before Charge Weapon, it's just how I roll. Anyway, Techies used to be fairly weak, and even now they're only better than Smugglers, Ranged Mercs fucking dominate. I understand that the -50% Electrical resistance on shields could be a nightmare for TechSpecs, but I still don't feel very threatened by it. Maybe I'll have to actually get hit by it first.

    Oh, but to anyone having trouble with Quadommes, they don't like Unresistable damage.
     
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  17. BasedBuckNasty

    BasedBuckNasty Well-Known Member

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    Nov 5, 2017
    I just assumed it was global since there is seperate shield defense and armor.

    Wrong. WRONG. That is a lust/gunner trap half kui-tan techie, thingy. I named him Rocket Steele. I don't even wear a top cuz it was just too easy. I shudder to even think about putting Frostbane Plate on im or giving em the Lash Cannon with shield drain.

    I never played with a ranged merc so I wouldn't know.
     
  18. Zerva

    Zerva Well-Known Member

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    Mar 25, 2016
    Putting it simply, you get an ability that lets you fire 4 times a turn, with the additional attacks having less accuracy, but since the Saurmorian Chaingun and weapons like it have "Bonus Hit Rate" that doesn't matter, and is meant to balance the fact they cannot crit.

    You are basically firing four times a turn in exchange for like, 15 energy? And reminding you we have a skill to regen 50+ energy once per combat. Not to mention that there is a 20% boost to ranged attacks using kinetic weapons, and ignoring AGAIN there is a perk that makes it so that every consecutive ranged hit does more damage than the previous, so if you are lucky you can chain that bonus 8 times or something and go from 50 damage a hit to 70.

    Where we're going, we don't need crits.
     
  19. BasedBuckNasty

    BasedBuckNasty Well-Known Member

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    Nov 5, 2017
    I see, I see.
    The melee merc is good at fighting multiple enemies since he/she can hit all of them with his/her regular strike.
    Eh, I haven't had trouble in combat for a very, very long time to be honest. I only have to use abilities for boss fights or maybe getting jumped by a Milodan in a blizzard after getting struck by lightning. Good thing I keep all those items now with my 20 capacity backpack.
     
  20. ScarletteKnight

    ScarletteKnight Well-Known Member

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    Dec 19, 2015
    Also, putting armor on a Tech is basically useless, Premium Armstrong or SteeleTech suit for extra shielding is much more worth it.
     
  21. BasedBuckNasty

    BasedBuckNasty Well-Known Member

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    Nov 5, 2017
    I agree about the Steele Tech suit since it also provides electric and burning resistances. However you can get a suit of Frostbane Plate out of Ratty armor with no negatives and a fortification bonus. Wearing Frostbane Plate itself will surpass the mercs wildest wet dreams in armor and also add bullet resistance due to Plating flag and net you a nice fortification bonus.
    You choose not to act.

    Your drone repeatedly zaps the mining robot. (H: -41)

    The robot digs its feet into the ground, bracing itself before the several laser barrels of its multi-lasers heat up and start spewing streaks of red heat across the tunnel!
    You manage to avoid the mining robot’s laser beam.
    The mining robot hits you with his laser carbine! Your shield crackles but holds. (S: -8)
    You manage to avoid the mining robot’s laser beam.
    You manage to avoid the mining robot’s laser beam.

    Had to deactivate my drone so it wouldn't solo kill it.
    It kept missing me so my shields kept regenerating.

    No shields freakin finally.
    You choose not to act.

    With a digitized roar, the robot barrels forward and drives its drill straight towards your chest. You roll with the blow, staggering back as the grinding metal tears into you! Thankfully, your armor absorbs most of the blow... but the drill leaves your armor sundered! (H: -11)
    Sundered!




    I would reserve the Armstrong suit for a smuggler tbh.
     
    #21 BasedBuckNasty, Jun 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  22. ScarletteKnight

    ScarletteKnight Well-Known Member

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    Dec 19, 2015
    But Smugglers have Frostbane Bikini and Shekka's Catsuit for 6 more Evasion, Frostbane Mail's 7 Evasion is better for a Smuggler than P.Armstrong suit because they don't have the ridiculous shielding.
     
  23. BasedBuckNasty

    BasedBuckNasty Well-Known Member

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    Nov 5, 2017
    Oh yeah, I did switch to Shekka's catsuit and the Prototype shield with Lash cannon and one shot mining droids as a Smuggler with 36% evasion instead of 10%.
    Also, you have to kill the Frostwyrm to get that or cheat. In that case just give yourself 900 hp and be done with it lol. I doubt many would actually pull the trigger legit. It will almost certainly be outperformed or on par with Zheng-Shi equipment which is coming soon. To be completely negated (which is shitty, but makes sense sense it is Uveto level equipment).
    I mean, get people legit like the Tech Specialist. I get it. But imma be perfectly honest, you shouldn't be anywhere near balancing the game for other classes. Fuckin 27 defense between shields and armor with 10& bonus evasion. Dafuq outta here.
    Also, Frostbane mail has seven evasion? Damn, I know I missed several months of content... but damn.


    See, you mofos just don't understand us melee mercs. Long ago the creators created space. In that space they created three blessed classes. Of these classes several tribes formed. The most powerful and wise of these classes was the Melee Merc. For he was durable and need little from the creator. The other classes was not so fortunate, being weak and needy of the creator. For years we melee mercs ran around as level eights in our Weavemail coats and carrying our holy Essyras or, if we was fortunate enough, a blessed Plasma Tomahawk. Every year it was Christmas for all the other classes. As gifts of Auto shotguns, railguns, you name it rained from the heavens upon them. However, it was not enough, it was never enough. The other classes bloated by the creators gifts became helpless, petulant, whiny. Led astray by the fallen Tech Specialist.
    Then a hushed rumour began to spread among the melee mercs. A rumour of a rumour really. Told in hushed tones around The Freezer over mugs of mead. The foretold arrival of a new melee weapon sent by the creators as reward for their stoic patience and unchanging, perfect nature. Finally we would get what was our due! However, in a cruel twist of fate, the merciless powers that be locked the prophesized melee weapon behind a futa pup smith thing! It was a test of our faith, our devotion! Did we complain? NO I SAY! WE DID NOT COMPLAIN! WE FUCKED THAT FUTA SILLY! THAT FUTA WAS GANGBANGED INTO THE ICE OF UVETA BY CRAZED DEVOUT MUSCULAR MELEE MERCS DAY AND NIGHT! NIGHT AND DAY!
    It is said that the floors of Korg' ii Hold was as a sea of spent fluid.
    Now, you have to understand that I wasn't proud of myself, but I was born of a different cloth than most of my comrades-in-arms. Instead I attempted to lavish gifts of Savicite upon this futa thingamajig. Yes! I a true melee merc stooped so very low as to attempt to purchase her affections! The Creators was unimpressed by this. I knew I needed to do more, something more drastic. I did the only thing a young virile Steele could do, I bent that futa smith over her anvil and fucked her silly! I ravaged that futa ass! For days... I FUCKN DID IT OKAY?! I DID IT!!! and the Creators was pleased.
    I... even told her I loved her, but I really didn't! That is how bad I wanted that spear, how bad I wanted to for just once, experience what it was like to be the other classes, the golden ones. To be graced with the attention of the Creators! I am not proud of it, but I did it okay? I did what I had to! Thusly, after a long drought upon the melee mercs tribe, they was gifted with not one, but a second more powerful melee weapon. A even more intimidating trial awaited the faithful.
     
    #23 BasedBuckNasty, Jun 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  24. herpaderphurr

    herpaderphurr Well-Known Member

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    Jan 5, 2018
    If characters had around 10 to 15-ish base evasion chance from the get-go, that would certainly work. You'd be hard pressed to make your evasion go into the negatives, and even if it did, it would only be like -3 or so is pretty marginal, and so the "negative evasion penalty" can be removed as a mechanic. On the other hand, it might make combat in general last too long, and/or require a bit of rebalancing.

    Also,
    Heavy armor should make you feel tanky, of course, but heavy weapons not so much. When I see a minigun, I don't think "this will protect me", other than in the sense that it will kill the enemy before they can kill me. In fact, it would make sense for some heavy weapons to make you more vulnerable, because they encumber you. For sure, getting a damage received penalty from heavy armor is pretty weird and unintuitive, but the penalty for heavy weapons makes sense to me.

    (The Aegis LMG is one exception, though - of course that thing would help protect you)
     
  25. criticAlls

    criticAlls Active Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2018
    Evasion should be reworked. This is just a bad joke that further encourages a singular style of play. If this sort of thing continues to happen we may as well remove all the classes except smuggler.

    It genuinely makes no sense that you take a higher amount of damage when you're already taking more hits due to lack of evasion. That was always the point, the drawback. Your armor's heavy? You take more hits. Just that simple. Hope you're prepared for that.

    But now you take more hits AND more damage, effectively negating or even inverting the positive aspects of a heavy build.

    Then again, maybe just removing the combat system all together would be the best idea. I mean it'd speed things up a TON, it'd let Fen and team just write things however they want to without having to account for player stats or the like, and it seems like the best idea because every time someone brings up mechanics or the like there's always people that say things along the lines of "Who cares? It's a porn game." So we're obviously just here for a quick fap. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong there, but it really does seem that way.

    No sarcasm or nastyness here. Just some genuine thoughts. It's not like anyone that's paying is actually here for the combat part of the game. Maybe the overall story and smut would benefit from no longer needing space combat or regular combat, that way all time worked on this could be devoted to just writing scenes and story.
     
  26. null_blank

    null_blank Well-Known Member

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    Oct 29, 2015
    They can just turn on ez mode.
     
  27. ScarletteKnight

    ScarletteKnight Well-Known Member

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    Dec 19, 2015
    First half was a bit overdone but not entirely wrong, and in essence i think they're just trying to nerf the Mercs, but this isn't the way I'd do it.

    However, the second part is entirely wrong. The combat system is part of why people play, we have entire threads dedicated to optimal builds and strategies because people like that part of Trials. If you really just want to masturbate, there's certainly no lack of porn on the internet.
     
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  28. Evil

    Evil Well-Known Member

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    Jul 18, 2017
    I have to agree with @ScarletteKnight, the combat system is a massive draw for people. Yeah, the porn is nice, but its even better when you earn it.

    I like my current build, a ranged Mercenary. I like that I'm effectively a steamroller and yeah, I'll take a couple of more hits, but honestly? It feels like being the guy from the opening of Lethal Weapon 4 (only without the horrible explodey death).

    So dude, you might have your own grievances with an aspect of the game and its entirely valid, but please don't speak for the whole community.
     
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  29. asidsaoi

    asidsaoi Member

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    Jun 13, 2017
    If it does not make sense to hurt you more by not dodging
    maybe this mentioned above would not be better than the mechanical PC in exchange for having a great height and being muscular would be less evasion but more defense or otherwise, be small and light, easily collapse or stun, but you have an evasive bonus, I think it would deepen the battles
     
  30. Xeivous

    Xeivous Well-Known Member

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    Sep 21, 2015
    Fen has been trying to keep the PC's appearance from having significant effects on combat so people aren't forced to look a certain way in order to not be shit at combat.