How do you use the "Single Minded" perk?

[Off The Record]

At 10th level, a merc. gets the single minded feature. If hp is 50%, then the perk increases willpower to its maximum value.

But what's the point of this? If I'm at 50% hp, I'm worried about losing from injuries, not losing from lust.

How do I use this perk? Is there a practical use?

 

[Theron]

Akane's Pain Slut, maybe?

It is kind of an awkward perk, yes. As a Mercenary:
1. HP is your main defense.
2. Your Energy recovery also restores HP.
3. As noted, if something is trying to defeat you via HP damage, you're not likely to lose via Lust.
4. If something is trying to defeat you via Lust damage, you're not likely to lose via HP.
5. Theoretically, it could help vs status attacks that target Willpower, but IIRC most target Physique instead.
5. Willpower is easy to max, regardless. Especially for Mercenaries, who get bonus Willpower from raising Physique.

I think it's more thematic than actually useful, much like Armor Tweaks.

Spoiler: Armor Tweaks

+20% Armor Defense on a Tech Specialist? Generally, If you're taking HP damage as a Tech Specialist, you're Doing It Wrong. It really only helps vs enemies that ignore Shields and requires you to have an Armor with decent Defense. Most +Shields Armor doesn't. It doesn't apply to Resistances, just Defense.

 

[Off The Record]

Akane's Pain Slut, maybe?

It is kind of an awkward perk, yes. As a Mercenary:
1. HP is your main defense.
2. Your Energy recovery also restores HP.
3. As noted, if something is trying to defeat you via HP damage, you're not likely to lose via Lust.
4. If something is trying to defeat you via Lust damage, you're not likely to lose via HP.
5. Theoretically, it could help vs status attacks that target Willpower, but IIRC most target Physique instead.
5. Willpower is easy to max, regardless. Especially for Mercenaries, who get bonus Willpower from raising Physique.

I think it's more thematic than actually useful, much like Armor Tweaks.

Spoiler: Armor Tweaks

+20% Armor Defense on a Tech Specialist? Generally, If you're taking HP damage as a Tech Specialist, you're Doing It Wrong. It really only helps vs enemies that ignore Shields and requires you to have an Armor with decent Defense. Most +Shields Armor doesn't. It doesn't apply to Resistances, just Defense.

In that case, this is now a gripe of mine.

 

[Theron]

(Technically a response to your post in Gripes, but I don't want to clutter up the thread).

Honestly, I'd count Single Minded among the least of the Mercenary's problems. It's no more dead than Cloak & Dagger (+5% Evasion, doesn't break the cap).

First, I'd concentrate on the disparity between Melee and Ranged. Ranged Merc is one of the best specs in the game right now, especially with Heavy Slut Ray. Melee is... adequate. A lot of this comes down to synergies. While a lot of the choices seem like reasonable tradeoffs, Ranged perks work with Rapid Fire and Melee don't work with Power Strike. Ranged has the better Stat Sticks, too. Rouser completely negates the Evasion penalty from Ramshackle Power Armor or LUCK, for example.

Spoiler: Merc Rant

Bloodthirsty: Alright on it's own, but it doesn't give more Energy when Cleaving and also doesn't refund Energy when Power Striking. Loses a chunk of value when you can get 50/66 Energy back in one turn. Also devalued by the fact that Power Potions aren't automatically consumed anymore, so you can buy a stack or two and use them in combat. No limit, even.
Armor Piercing: Ignore up to Level + 2 Defense? Very useful.

Power Strike: One big attack. Helps overcome Defense and Resistance. Doesn't stack with Bloodthirsty, Cleave, Riposte, Lunge (Stagger).
Rapid Fire: +2 attacks with 55% chance to hit. Penalty completely negated by Bonus Hit Rate. Allows 3-4 attacks with weapons that can only be fired once by other classes, even with Second Shot. Frankly, I'm pretty sure this is why they've been so stingy with Ranged Stun weapons.

Riposte: +15% Evasion is decent, and can offset Power Armor penalties, but it doesn't break the 50% Evasion cap. I don't think it applies when Power Striking, but I could be wrong.
Take Cover: A separate effect from normal Evasion -90 Accuracy (Ranged Attacks only).

Carpet Grenades Vs Detonation Charge: Your only in-class use for Intelligence. I never actually use these, so I don't have an opinion.

Low Tech Solutions Vs Heavy Weapons: No real difference. The 20% only applies to the base Weapon damage, so it's not as impactful as you might think. A lot of the weapons with fun Flags are Energy, though.

Cleave: Useful when it comes up, but frequency depends on the developers. As a Level 7 Perk, any fight before about Myrellion doesn't count.
Concentrated Fire: In theory, really good at dealing with single-target foes, but not against groups. In practice, being able to focus-fire down one target at a time is very useful. And single-target fights are much more common.

Second Attack: Does upgrade Power Strike from 2x to 2.7x.
Second Shot: Stacks with Rapid Fire.

Rending Attacks: I'm not sure what, exactly Sunder applies to. Just Defense? Description says 'reducing armor', but I don't know if the game actually divides it out like that. Ranged has been automatically ignoring an increasing amount of Defense since Level 2. An enemy would need 18-22 Defense for Sunder to be equal, at Level 9.
Giant Slayer: How many enemies are taller than 7 feet? I went through a while ago and counted ~33. However, at Level 9, anything before Uveto probably doesn't count. So, ~12?

Lunge: Now you don't need Wings or dedicate your Accessory slot to the Light Jetpack to hit Flying enemies. Stagger is decent. Physique vs Physique.
Bigger Guns: Or you could just get 40+ Physique and boost your Willpower at the same time. Despite the name, also applies to Melee weapons.

 

[Off The Record]

(Technically a response to your post in Gripes, but I don't want to clutter up the thread).

Honestly, I'd count Single Minded among the least of the Mercenary's problems. It's no more dead than Cloak & Dagger (+5% Evasion, doesn't break the cap).

First, I'd concentrate on the disparity between Melee and Ranged. Ranged Merc is one of the best specs in the game right now, especially with Heavy Slut Ray. Melee is... adequate. A lot of this comes down to synergies. While a lot of the choices seem like reasonable tradeoffs, Ranged perks work with Rapid Fire and Melee don't work with Power Strike. Ranged has the better Stat Sticks, too. Rouser completely negates the Evasion penalty from Ramshackle Power Armor or LUCK, for example.

Spoiler: Merc Rant

Bloodthirsty: Alright on it's own, but it doesn't give more Energy when Cleaving and also doesn't refund Energy when Power Striking. Loses a chunk of value when you can get 50/66 Energy back in one turn. Also devalued by the fact that Power Potions aren't automatically consumed anymore, so you can buy a stack or two and use them in combat. No limit, even.
Armor Piercing: Ignore up to Level + 2 Defense? Very useful.

Power Strike: One big attack. Helps overcome Defense and Resistance. Doesn't stack with Bloodthirsty, Cleave, Riposte, Lunge (Stagger).
Rapid Fire: +2 attacks with 55% chance to hit. Penalty completely negated by Bonus Hit Rate. Allows 3-4 attacks with weapons that can only be fired once by other classes, even with Second Shot. Frankly, I'm pretty sure this is why they've been so stingy with Ranged Stun weapons.

Riposte: +15% Evasion is decent, and can offset Power Armor penalties, but it doesn't break the 50% Evasion cap. I don't think it applies when Power Striking, but I could be wrong.
Take Cover: A separate effect from normal Evasion -90 Accuracy (Ranged Attacks only).

Carpet Grenades Vs Detonation Charge: Your only in-class use for Intelligence. I never actually use these, so I don't have an opinion.

Low Tech Solutions Vs Heavy Weapons: No real difference. The 20% only applies to the base Weapon damage, so it's not as impactful as you might think. A lot of the weapons with fun Flags are Energy, though.

Cleave: Useful when it comes up, but frequency depends on the developers. As a Level 7 Perk, any fight before about Myrellion doesn't count.
Concentrated Fire: In theory, really good at dealing with single-target foes, but not against groups. In practice, being able to focus-fire down one target at a time is very useful. And single-target fights are much more common.

Second Attack: Does upgrade Power Strike from 2x to 2.7x.
Second Shot: Stacks with Rapid Fire.

Rending Attacks: I'm not sure what, exactly Sunder applies to. Just Defense? Description says 'reducing armor', but I don't know if the game actually divides it out like that. Ranged has been automatically ignoring an increasing amount of Defense since Level 2. An enemy would need 18-22 Defense for Sunder to be equal, at Level 9.
Giant Slayer: How many enemies are taller than 7 feet? I went through a while ago and counted ~33. However, at Level 9, anything before Uveto probably doesn't count. So, ~12?

Lunge: Now you don't need Wings or dedicate your Accessory slot to the Light Jetpack to hit Flying enemies. Stagger is decent. Physique vs Physique.
Bigger Guns: Or you could just get 40+ Physique and boost your Willpower at the same time. Despite the name, also applies to Melee weapons.

This makes sense. I'm not sure about the design philosophy behind the perks. It'd be cool to hear from the Team on this.

But absent their input, I think the perks could benefit from a rework. The status quo is that mercenaries spec into melee or range (STR/AIM), technicians spec into shields or drones (INT + AIM), and smugglers spec into melee or range (REF + STR/AIM). But I think it'd be more meaningful and workable if the classes' general features focused on the non-STR and non-AIM stat: WILL for mercenaries, REF for smugglers, and INT for technicians. Each class could use their respective general stat in a unique fashion. For instance, WILL, for mercenaries, could increase hp.

After that, each class could have a perk tree for melee (STR) and ranged (AIM) combat. I think an organized baseline like this could make designing perks and items easier when it comes to balance (equally serving a players' class and sub-class choice). For instance, carpet grenades and detonation charge requires INT. But this makes no sense. Soldiers and mercenaries don't need to be smart to use a weapon. That's the whole point of weapon advancements: easy to produce, easy to use. Just pull the pin and toss the damn bomb. If the foundation of the class is WILL + STR/AIM, it could remind the Team that perks outside these stats deviate from the class concept.

I feel like this might have been the intention at some point, because there are traces of this in the design, but it's incomplete!

 

[Theron]

This makes sense. I'm not sure about the design philosophy behind the perks. It'd be cool to hear from the Team on this.

Frankly, I think it was mostly emergent. I get the feeling they just made it up as they went along. As I noted, each row seems like a decent trade (extra damage right now vs more special attacks, single vs multi target), but as the game progressed, one side built on itself better than the other. And fit the actual encounters better.

But absent their input, I think the perks could benefit from a rework. The status quo is that mercenaries spec into melee or range (STR/AIM), technicians spec into shields or drones (INT + AIM), and smugglers spec into melee or range (REF + STR/AIM).

Everyone specs into Melee or Ranged. Tech Specialists just have another thing they can specialize in, as well. Originally, Tech Specialists didn't have a Melee skill. I think that changed when Level 8 was added (with it's universal perks). I wasn't playing at the time. Their Class description still specifically calls out Aim. It's ironic that the class that's specifically described as using Ranged is probably the best Melee, and the class with the most reason to pump Physique is the best Ranged.

But I think it'd be more meaningful and workable if the classes' general features focused on the non-STR and non-AIM stat: WILL for mercenaries, REF for smugglers, and INT for technicians. Each class could use their respective general stat in a unique fashion. For instance, WILL, for mercenaries, could increase hp.

Tech Specialists already lean heavily into Intelligence. In Flash, before the Charge Weapon nerf, I took a Melee Drone TS through Zheng Shi and completely dumped Physique, just to see if I could. When I started a Melee Merc, I was surprised at how 'squishy' I felt.

After that, each class could have a perk tree for melee (STR) and ranged (AIM) combat. I think an organized baseline like this could make designing items easier when it comes to balance (equally serving a players' class and sub-class choice).

For Mercs, I'd make as many Perks work with both. Armor Piercing vs Energy regen, Single Target vs Multi Target. The Class description mentions 'a variety of weapons'. Mercs should be the least required to specialize.

On the other hand, you get 13 Stat points at level up. Enough to keep 2 stats maxed and a 3rd reasonably high. While it's possible to max all stats, they don't want to require it.

For instance, carpet grenades and detonation charge requires INT. But this makes no sense. Soldiers and mercenaries don't need to be smart to use a weapon. That's the whole point of weapon advancements: easy to produce, easy to use. Just pull the pin and toss the damn bomb. If the foundation of the class is WILL + STR/AIM, it could remind the Team that perks outside these stats deviate from the class concept.

The obvious choice for this is Aim (Putting it right where you want it), but that just makes Ranged even more dominant. There's a reason Flash Grenade counts you as having 10 more Aim than you actually do.
I could also make an argument that you're actually building the Grenades, since you certainly aren't buying them.

All this said, they might want to wait until they're almost done with the game, so they know what all the encounters look like. Or at least come up with all the remaining levels at once.

 

[Off The Record]

Frankly, I think it was mostly emergent. I get the feeling they just made it up as they went along. As I noted, each row seems like a decent trade (extra damage right now vs more special attacks, single vs multi target), but as the game progressed, one side built on itself better than the other. And fit the actual encounters better.

Everyone specs into Melee or Ranged. Tech Specialists just have another thing they can specialize in, as well. Originally, Tech Specialists didn't have a Melee skill. I think that changed when Level 8 was added (with it's universal perks). I wasn't playing at the time. Their Class description still specifically calls out Aim. It's ironic that the class that's specifically described as using Ranged is probably the best Melee, and the class with the most reason to pump Physique is the best Ranged.

Tech Specialists already lean heavily into Intelligence. In Flash, before the Charge Weapon nerf, I took a Melee Drone TS through Zheng Shi and completely dumped Physique, just to see if I could. When I started a Melee Merc, I was surprised at how 'squishy' I felt.

All this said, they might want to wait until they're almost done with the game, so they know what all the encounters look like. Or at least come up with all the remaining levels at once.

Issues like mercenaries excelling at ranged rather than melee combat and technicians excelling at melee rather than ranged combat is because the foundation is unclear and meandering. You don't need to wait until the end to build a solid foundation. You just need a dedicated concept and organized features. Look at this:

Smugglers emphasize inficting negative status effects, so a general feature encouraging this behavior looks like this:

Cut to the Chase: Gain 5% crit chance against a creature for each negative status effect it suffers from.

Then, smugglers could proceed, at 1st-level, to choose either a Physique or Aim perk like:

Flash Grenade: Perform a ranged attack against one creature. To blind the creature, attempt an aim check higher than the creature's physique check to resist.

Low Blow: Perform a melee attack against one creature. To stagger the creature, attempt a physique check higher than the creature's physique check to resist.

(I nerfed Low Blow from stun to stagger to make Low Blow more equal to Flash Grenade)

This is clean and it doesn't favor melee/ranged over the other. Flash Grenade and Low Blow build on the hallmark of the class: Cut to the Chase. Because these perks are clear and simple, it's easier for designers to build other perks and items that interact with these features.

The obvious choice for this is Aim (Putting it right where you want it), but that just makes Ranged even more dominant. There's a reason Flash Grenade counts you as having 10 more Aim than you actually do.
I could also make an argument that you're actually building the Grenades, since you certainly aren't buying them.

If the issue is unfairness, the designers could away with these grenades most people don't use anyway. Instead, design something like:

Cleave: Perform a melee attack against all hostile creatures.

Volley: Perform a ranged attack against all hostile creatures.

Boom. It's the same effect: damage against multiple targets. Hell, Cleave already exists.

For Mercs, I'd make as many Perks work with both. Armor Piercing vs Energy regen, Single Target vs Multi Target. The Class description mentions 'a variety of weapons'. Mercs should be the least required to specialize.

No disagreement here. The whole melee v. ranged thing is weird to begin with since you can carry both weapons around anyway. Plus, Paragon's rep. rewards a... energy pistol? One should think Paragon fits mercenaries best, but mercenaries are incentivized to use kinetic weapons from heavy weapons and low tech solutions, and Paragon rewards Steele the Peer, an energy pistol. However, the above suggestions are intended to build on what already exists as much as possible.

 

[Theron]

Smugglers emphasize inficting negative status effects, so a general feature encouraging this behavior looks like this: Cut to the Chase: Gain 5% crit chance against a creature for each negative status effect it suffers from.

You'd have to do something about effect durations to really stack that into something meaningful. Or have Perks that give a lowish chance to inflict a Status with a normal Attack.

If the issue is unfairness, the designers could away with these grenades most people don't use anyway. Instead, design something like:

Not so much unfairness as impracticality. If the devs don't want to require stat training, there's only so many points to go around. You can pick up Low Blow, but it doesn't work on everything. Stun Chance on your weapon is better than Low Blow anyway. No targeting restrictions, can attempt twice in a round.

I'd kind of like more attacks vs other stats. Most of the attacks available to the PC are (PC Stat) vs Physique. Flash Grenade is Aim vs Reflex and Mag Binders is Reflex vs Reflex, but that's it. Both Stun Chance and Trip Chance target Physique. (Stun is Just Better.)

Boom. It's the same effect: damage against multiple targets. Hell, Cleave already exists.

They're building new stuff all the time. They didn't have the tech for proper multicombatant fights until Myrellion (though Cleave does work on Raskvel Work Gang, et al). Who knows what they'll come up with later, that they might want to give classes some way to deal with. I'm half-convinced they made more enemies capable of Flying because of the change to Wings and the Jetpack.

No disagreement here. The whole melee v. ranged thing is weird to begin with since you can carry both weapons around anyway.

I'm not sure they really intended for the player to heavily specialize at first. Mhen'ga has an enemy that cannot be hit by Ranged weapons, and a Flying enemy that cannot be hit by Melee. And on Mhen'ga, that's fine, because the difference in stats basically doesn't exist. You'll notice there are no enemies that cannot be hit by Ranged after that, and relatively few Flying enemies. If the player wants to use both weapons, even regardless of invested Perks, that's 10 of your stat points every level (default/intended way to play). In the current game, you want Aim/Physique + Class stat (Mercs: Physique, TS: Intelligence, Smug: Reflex) + probably Willpower for the Tease resist. That said, my Melee Tech keeps a NaN Deconstructor for enemies that can hit through Shields (though I train Aim high).

Plus, Paragon's rep. rewards a... energy pistol? One should think Paragon fits mercenaries best, but mercenaries are incentivized to use kinetic weapons from heavy weapons and low tech solutions, and Paragon rewards Steele the Peer, an energy pistol. However, the above suggestions are intended to build on what already exists as much as possible.

An Energy Pistol with +15% Crit. With the right equipment, I think a Merc can get 40% Crit with that. Like I said, Heavy Weapons and Low Tech Solutions aren't as big as you might think. My Melee Merc is still using Custom Shock Gear, because it turns out that Stun Chance + Bonus Hit Rate is really good.

But what about Melee Mercs? Well... Or Melee anything, really. None of the Party rewards seemed all that great, to me. Chemmaster Armor gives a tiny amount of Energy 1/battle for Taint, Dance Haven gives extra Sexiness, I guess. But Teasing isn't exactly hard if you already built for it. 2 of the Dungeon rewards are better, and you can trade them out, if you don't like the one you got. (Jury's out on External Toxin Pump. It will depend on the next planet.)

Neither of the others really match any of the classes. Does Tech Specialist or Smuggler have a monopoly on 'Drugs' (Bright Water) or 'Sex' (Utopian Skies)?
I did notice the Party and Dungeon rewards for Bright Water (Armor) and Utopian Skies (Accessories) conflict.

 

[Off The Record]

You'd have to do something about effect durations to really stack that into something meaningful. Or have Perks that give a lowish chance to inflict a Status with a normal Attack.

An Energy Pistol with +15% Crit. With the right equipment, I think a Merc can get 40% Crit with that. Like I said, Heavy Weapons and Low Tech Solutions aren't as big as you might think. My Melee Merc is still using Custom Shock Gear, because it turns out that Stun Chance + Bonus Hit Rate is really good.

The revised Low Blow and Flash Grenade examples I provided do that. Both are an attack and a chance to impose a negative status condition.

But, honest, I don't think more is neccessary. Some tougher enemies have mechanics that result in them suffering a negative status condition. Its against those tougher enemies when stacking crit chance matters the most. Against the more common enemies, a 5% or 10% increase + the actual negative status condition is adequate. This is a substantial enough difference that it could encourage the more astute players to focus on nabbing items that increase crit chance over flat damage, thereby resulting in a distinguishable playstyle for the class. Beside this, there are items that impose negative status conditions like custom shock gear, as you've noted.

But nevermind the numbers. I offered the "crit chance for status conditions" as an example of a successful general perk. The numbers aren't the important detail. It's the design that's important: a passive feature that encourages a playstyle intergral to the class, and then perk trees building on this passive feature.

Not so much unfairness as impracticality. If the devs don't want to require stat training, there's only so many points to go around. You can pick up Low Blow, but it doesn't work on everything. Stun Chance on your weapon is better than Low Blow anyway. No targeting restrictions, can attempt twice in a round.

At 1st-level, Low Blow is an effective perk that teaches players to play the smuggler, a class that encourages imposing status conditions to inflict more damage. Instead of requiring a stun chance weapon like custom shock gear to be a successful smuggler, it's good design to offer in-built means to impose negative status conditions on an enemy. The stun chance weapon is a just an improvement -- one that's earned by encountering Shizuya, entering the Great Majin while it's docked, and then defeating her in combat. But isn't it too much to require all that? I think it's a good thing to reward this effort and exploration, but it's a bad thing to require it.

I'd kind of like more attacks vs other stats.

Agreed.

Both Stun Chance and Trip Chance target Physique. (Stun is Just Better.)

I think the Team should change negative status conditions a little. Stun seems the best in most situations. But I'd like to see different status conditions, not better status conditions. In fact, it might be worth downgrading stun to something like "disoriented" that doesn't rob an entire turn, but might instead decrease hit chance or something.

They're building new stuff all the time. They didn't have the tech for proper multicombatant fights until Myrellion (though Cleave does work on Raskvel Work Gang, et al). Who knows what they'll come up with later, that they might want to give classes some way to deal with. I'm half-convinced they made more enemies capable of Flying because of the change to Wings and the Jetpack.

I'm not sure they really intended for the player to heavily specialize at first. Mhen'ga has an enemy that cannot be hit by Ranged weapons, and a Flying enemy that cannot be hit by Melee. And on Mhen'ga, that's fine, because the difference in stats basically doesn't exist. You'll notice there are no enemies that cannot be hit by Ranged after that, and relatively few Flying enemies.

That's interesting. Never noticed this.

But what about Melee Mercs? Well... Or Melee anything, really. None of the Party rewards seemed all that great, to me. Chemmaster Armor gives a tiny amount of Energy 1/battle for Taint, Dance Haven gives extra Sexiness, I guess. But Teasing isn't exactly hard if you already built for it. 2 of the Dungeon rewards are better, and you can trade them out, if you don't like the one you got. (Jury's out on External Toxin Pump. It will depend on the next planet.)

I agree. The first character I ran was a melee smuggler. Custom shock gear was a great help, obviously, but in large part, it seems there's less stuff for melee characters. I know Akane has a great melee weapon, but it's locked behind all that niche pain slut business.

Neither of the others really match any of the classes. Does Tech Specialist or Smuggler have a monopoly on 'Drugs' (Bright Water) or 'Sex' (Utopian Skies)?
I did notice the Party and Dungeon rewards for Bright Water (Armor) and Utopian Skies (Accessories) conflict.

I didn't mean to suggest each of the corporations cater to each class. I only meant to suggest that Paragon is the obvious thematic cater to mercenaries. I feel thematic relationships like this are something the Team might give some attention to. But it seemed like the Paragon route awards gear better suited to the technician: first, the energy pistol Peer, and then shield-boosting chameleon armor.

 

[Theron]

At 1st-level, Low Blow is an effective perk that teaches players to play the smuggler, a class that encourages imposing status conditions to inflict more damage. Instead of requiring a stun chance weapon like custom shock gear to be a successful smuggler, it's good design to offer in-built means to impose negative status conditions on an enemy.

What about Flash Grenade doesn't teach people how to play a Smuggler, aside from being default instead of consciously picked? Low Blow is an enabler for Melee Smugglers that also does damage (and doesn't work on everything). You don't get Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot until level 3. All classes have some type of disable by default, Smugglers just rely on it for their bonus damage.

The stun chance weapon is a just an improvement -- one that's earned by encountering Shizuya, entering the Great Majin while it's docked, and then defeating her in combat. But isn't it too much to require all that? I think it's a good thing to reward this effort and exploration, but it's a bad thing to require it.

There are other Stun weapons, you know. Earliest is probably the Rocket Hammer from Aurora (Tarkus). You can also buy a Lightning Rod or Shock Bow from Carl at level 6. Concussive Shot gives a Stun attack from Mhen'ga, so long as you're using a Bow.

I think the Team should change negative status conditions a little. Stun seems the best in most situations. But I'd like to see different status conditions, not better status conditions. In fact, it might be worth downgrading stun to something like "disoriented" that doesn't rob an entire turn, but might instead decrease hit chance or something.

'Disoriented' as described is basically Stagger.
If we're thinking about changing Status Conditions, can we get a buff to Burn? 1 damage for 1 extra round is worthless.

I agree. The first character I ran was a melee smuggler. Custom shock gear was a great help, obviously, but in large part, it seems there's less stuff for melee characters. I know Akane has a great melee weapon, but it's locked behind all that niche pain slut business.

In my opinion, the biggest problem is there aren't a lot of good items to put in the Ranged slot for bonus Stats. Most of the good Stat Sticks are for the Melee slot. I used to use the FZR for cheesing certain fights with low stats, but Deep Freeze was nerfed so badly I think it might actually be better for Ranged primaries now.

I didn't mean to suggest each of the corporations cater to each class. I only meant to suggest that Paragon is the obvious thematic cater to mercenaries. I feel thematic relationships like this are something the Team might give some attention to. But it seemed like the Paragon route awards gear better suited to the technician: first, the energy pistol Peer, and then shield-boosting chameleon armor.

There are 3 Corps and 3 Classes (and two specializations each). If Paragon did give a really nice non-Energy Gun, what about Melee Mercs? What about Tech Specialists? Point is, somebody's getting left out.

Remember, if you side with Paragon, you're attacking Utopian Skies, so you get their tech. If you side with Bright Water, you attack Paragon, which gives you the LUCK Power Armor (probably intended for Mercs). You can also trade out the dungeon item in Gabtown (once).

Also, Kattom sells Ice Cappers, which aren't Energy. They don't have as much base damage as the Saurmorian Rail Gun, but can Crit, and have bonuses to Crit and Accuracy (I actually think it's overtuned compared to the Street Sweeper). That's something I forgot to mention: Most Bonus Hit Rate Ranged weapons have the Cannot Crit flag, which also negates the Merc's 10% bonus Crit. Probably because of Rapid Fire (again). (And Rapid Fire benefits from Critical Blows, but Power Strike does not.)

I prioritize Shields on my Melee Merc and have done fairly well.

 

[Off The Record]

What about Flash Grenade doesn't teach people how to play a Smuggler, aside from being default instead of consciously picked? Low Blow is an enabler for Melee Smugglers that also does damage (and doesn't work on everything). You don't get Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot until level 3. All classes have some type of disable by default, Smugglers just rely on it for their bonus damage.

I never said it doesn't. But I'll explain my point from the beginning to ensure we're on the same page.

1. You said melee/ranged is unequally represented.

2. I said each class should have a clearer foundation serving the class concept.

3. For the smuggler, the class concept is status effect = more damage.

4. The status quo is to grant Flash Grenade (blinds) at 1st-level, then Low Blow (stuns) or Shoot First (bonus attack on 1st-round) at 2nd-level.

5. The issue is that Flash Grenade is an active perk, not a passive perk. Sneak Attack and Aimed Shot (bonus damage against stunned/blinded enemies) are also active perks. This makes accessing the class concept an uneccessary 2-turn procedure. There is no need to spend Energy and an additional turn exploiting a negative status condition.

6. The issue is also that Shoot First (bonus attack on the 1st-round) does not serve the class concept.

7. One potential fix is to transform Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot into a passive. Then, level Low Blow and Flash Grenade to the same tier in the perk tree. At 1st-level, players choose either Low Blow (melee smuggler) or Flash Grenade (ranged smuggler).

8. This fix resolves the complaints in #1 (unequal representation) and #2 (unclear foundation), resolves the issue in #5 (inaccessible class concept) and #6 (Shoot First does not serve class concept), and therefore, serves #3 (class concept) better than #4 (status quo).

That aside, the fact that Low Blow doesn't work on anything is both good and bad, intentionally. Intentionally good in that a class shouldn't excel in all situations. Intentionally bad in that a class should have the option to obtain other class perks inflicting applicable negative status conditions. For instance, stun might not work against machines, but blind still does. The Team can further this by diversifying status conditions, like you asked for and I agreed. The Team can further symmetry by creating enemies immune to blind, but not immune to stun. Etc.

There are other Stun weapons, you know. Earliest is probably the Rocket Hammer from Aurora (Tarkus). You can also buy a Lightning Rod or Shock Bow from Carl at level 6. Concussive Shot gives a Stun attack from Mhen'ga, so long as you're using a Bow.

The point I made still rings true. These stunning weapons are rare. Some require optional effort (outside credits) to obtain, like custom shock gear. A class should not need items or to operate as intended. But items should improve efficacy.

Also, Concussive Shot is a stun perk, not a stun weapon. It's redundant for a 2nd-level smuggler in Mhen'ga who has unlocked Low Blow. It's the Low Blow alternative for ranged smugglers.

'Disoriented' as described is basically Stagger.

The linguistic meaning is the same, but the mechanical meaning isn't. The intention here is to create one status condition against each stat: perhaps disoriented impairs aim, prone impairs reflexes, etc. Do you get my meaning?

Stagger in effect is a little too broad for imposing a 20% decrease to physical stats. As is, I think both stagger and stun should be removed or revised. But that's another conversation.

If we're thinking about changing Status Conditions, can we get a buff to Burn? 1 damage for 1 extra round is worthless.

Aye.

Something like shielded opponents are immune to the burning condition, but non-shielded opponents are supscetible. Supscetible enemies suffer percentage-based burn damage. It's a status effect that could excel against tankier enemies due to the percentage-based modifier, but is limited for fair use because it's not applicable to shielded enemies. Either enemies must have no shield, or you need to deplete shield to 0 before inflicting the burn condition.

In my opinion, the biggest problem is there aren't a lot of good items to put in the Ranged slot for bonus Stats. Most of the good Stat Sticks are for the Melee slot. I used to use the FZR for cheesing certain fights with low stats, but Deep Freeze was nerfed so badly I think it might actually be better for Ranged primaries now.

I use the saurmorian rail gun for ranged merc. It works great. Have you tried that?

There are 3 Corps and 3 Classes (and two specializations each). If Paragon did give a really nice non-Energy Gun, what about Melee Mercs? What about Tech Specialists? Point is, somebody's getting left out.

That's true.

Remember, if you side with Paragon, you're attacking Utopian Skies, so you get their tech. If you side with Bright Water, you attack Paragon, which gives you the LUCK Power Armor (probably intended for Mercs). You can also trade out the dungeon item in Gabtown (once).

For sure, I know.

Also, Kattom sells Ice Cappers, which aren't Energy. They don't have as much base damage as the Saurmorian Rail Gun, but can Crit, and have bonuses to Crit and Accuracy (I actually think it's overtuned compared to the Street Sweeper). That's something I forgot to mention: Most Bonus Hit Rate Ranged weapons have the Cannot Crit flag, which also negates the Merc's 10% bonus Crit. Probably because of Rapid Fire (again). (And Rapid Fire benefits from Critical Blows, but Power Strike does not.)

This is what I mean about the classes being unclear and meandering.

I prioritize Shields on my Melee Merc and have done fairly well.

Explain this to me. I haven't thought about this before.

 

[Theron]

5. The issue is that Flash Grenade is an active perk, not a passive perk. Sneak Attack and Aimed Shot (bonus damage against stunned/blinded enemies) are also active perks. This makes accessing the class concept an uneccessary 2-turn procedure. There is no need to spend Energy and an additional turn exploiting a negative status condition.

I'd have classified Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot as passive already, since they trigger with normal attacks vs eligible targets.

6. The issue is also that Shoot First (bonus attack on the 1st-round) does not serve the class concept.

Except that it's a clear reference to Han Solo. Additionally, if your weapon has an effect, you get up to 3 chances to trigger it first round. Alpha strike makes it a Crit, so actually a little more than 4 effective shots in the first round (Crits are double damage, but better than 1 extra attack for overcoming Defense). If I get a little lucky, I can one-round the Gabilani Chemist with the Sunsetter.

7. One potential fix is to transform Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot into a passive. Then, level Low Blow and Flash Grenade to the same tier in the perk tree. At 1st-level, players choose either Low Blow (melee smuggler) or Flash Grenade (ranged smuggler).

I'm having trouble parsing your meaning here. Do you envision Low Blow and Flash Grenade as doing damage? You're unlikely to get the bonus damage on the round they inflict the Status. Either you rely on normal attacks to conserve Energy, you keep using Special attacks to inflict more Status (at the cost of Energy) or all your normal attacks have a chance to inflict several Statuses. Also, what do you put at level 1? Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot? If so, you have no means to trigger it at level 1.

As it stands, yes, it is kind of awkward to have a setup round before doing your major damage. But you get a huge payoff for ~2 rounds. Especially if you've been increasing Intelligence.

That aside, the fact that Low Blow doesn't work on anything is both good and bad, intentionally. Intentionally good in that a class shouldn't excel in all situations. Intentionally bad in that a class should have the option to obtain other class perks inflicting applicable negative status conditions. For instance, stun might not work against machines, but blind still does. The Team can further this by diversifying status conditions, like you asked for and I agreed. The Team can further symmetry by creating enemies immune to blind, but not immune to stun. Etc.

There's a balance to strike. A Class might not excel vs a given enemy, but it shouldn't be a total shutdown, either (Looking at you, Janeria).

Re: Machines immune to Stun: EMP Grenades used to. (They don't work on ~half of they should/did. Pretty sure that's a bug.)

The point I made still rings true. These stunning weapons are rare. Some require optional effort (outside credits) to obtain, like custom shock gear. A class should not need items or to operate as intended. But items should improve efficacy.

I don't know if I'd classify them as necessary, but they're effective enough that it's a good idea to use them. The bonus damage from Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot more than makes up for somewhat low base damage, so you can keep using a lower tier weapon for a long time.

In a game like this, some degree of item dependency is probably inevitable. You could make the same argument about better Evasion gear on Smugglers or better Shields on Tech Specialists. That said, the game is generally easy enough that decent stats go a long way.

Also, Concussive Shot is a stun perk, not a stun weapon. It's redundant for a 2nd-level smuggler in Mhen'ga who has unlocked Low Blow. It's the Low Blow alternative for ranged smugglers.

My point is you can still have a Stun + damage with Ranged, even if you want to upgrade from the Shock Bow. Since Ranged have less access to Stun weapons (only 2 right now). It also does Burning damage, which might be useful if the target resists Electric.

I use the saurmorian rail gun for ranged merc. It works great. Have you tried that?

I think you missed my point. A Ranged character can get significant Evasion or Shields from the Melee slot (a slot they're not using). Melee characters who rarely, if ever, use Ranged weapons* don't have much to put in that slot to benefit from. The best is likely either the Warden Shield from Tarkus, or the NaN Deconstructor/Hirudo Devourer because Vampiric doesn't exist on any Melee weapon.
*Especially now that it's possible to hit Flying enemies with Melee weapons.

Explain this to me. I haven't thought about this before.

It probably has something to do with the fact that I started with Tech Specialist and Smuggler. I have this idea that taking Health damage is Doing It Wrong. Especially since if you have to use Second Wind, the opponent is just going to hit you again that turn.

My Melee Merc is currently using the Custom Shock Gear, Augment-Weave Armor, Pirate Prototype Shield and Shield Aug Bracers. 300 Shields. Still debating on whether to switch CSG for the Rough Leash. I'm leaning towards 'no'. What is yours using?

I will say that while I've been experimenting, I haven't really played seriously in a while. I'm waiting for several bugs to get fixed.

 

[Off The Record]

Our comments are getting too large, too unwieldy. Throughout this response, I recommended that we wrap up some subjects here and there.

I'd have classified Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot as passive already, since they trigger with normal attacks vs eligible targets.

The difference is that it requires energy, and it can't stack onto other perk attacks. That's uneccessarily cumbersome. That's the reason a revision is beneficial, among other reasons.

Except that it's a clear reference to Han Solo.

Respectfully, this is irrelevant.

Additionally, if your weapon has an effect, you get up to 3 chances to trigger it first round. Alpha strike makes it a Crit, so actually a little more than 4 effective shots in the first round (Crits are double damage, but better than 1 extra attack for overcoming Defense). If I get a little lucky, I can one-round the Gabilani Chemist with the Sunsetter.

I never said Shoot First can't be useful. You're missing the goalpost here. The goalpost, for the third time, is to create a cohesive class featuring perks that serve the class concept and serve both melee and ranged options equally.

Therefore, if you think this perk is beneficial, then it can be used elsewhere opposite to a feature unlike Low Blow.

I'm having trouble parsing your meaning here. Do you envision Low Blow and Flash Grenade as doing damage?

Correct. You said,

You'd have to do something about effect durations to really stack that into something meaningful. Or have Perks that give a lowish chance to inflict a Status with a normal Attack.

I responded by pointing out that I already anticipated that. The examples I delivered already incorporated this: damage, then a chance to inflict a condition.

You're unlikely to get the bonus damage on the round they inflict the Status.

Not the goal.

Also, what do you put at level 1? Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot? If so, you have no means to trigger it at level 1.

There are general perks (the one you get automatically) and choice perks (the ones you choose from perk trees).

My suggestion was:

At 1st-level, the general perk is Cut to the Chase.*

The 1st-Level choice perks are Low Blow** and Flash Grenade.

* Inspired from Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot.
** I pointed out that Low Blow in that context should inflict stagger rather than stun. Stagger is more comparable to blind. This makes Low Blow a more equal option to Flash Grenade. I brought this up because I know you wanted more equal representation between melee and ranged combatants.

So, yes, there's a means to trigger it at level 1.

I don't know if I'd classify them as necessary, but they're effective enough that it's a good idea to use them. The bonus damage from Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot more than makes up for somewhat low base damage, so you can keep using a lower tier weapon for a long time.

I think we've exhausted this specific subject to the extent that your comments have become, "Oh but don't forget about this!" w/out saying so, so your reponses sometimes come off as "I disagree and here's why."

Because if you scroll up, this is how the conversation has gone for this specific subject:
1. I state the smuggler class, for example, benefits from a crit increasing passive contingent on enemies suffering from a negative status condition.
2. You state this passive must overcome the fact that conditions have short durations.
3. I state there are enough negative status conditions active throughout enough of the battle. In fact, items like custom shock gear help.
4. You state stun chance weapons are superior to perks inflicting negative status conditions.
5. I state that's not the point. A class should function autonomously from items. Items should improve efficacy, not fill the missing piece. In particular, where these items are rare and require optional effort. I use custom shock gear for this example.
6. You state there are stun chance weapons other than custom shock gear. You then list those items.
7. I state the items you listed are still rare and therefore, do not diminish that branch of my point.

From my perspective, there's no point in furthering this specific subject. You and I agree, more or less. We've just been talking around one another.

Let's pack this one up.

As it stands, yes, it is kind of awkward to have a setup round before doing your major damage. But you get a huge payoff for ~2 rounds. Especially if you've been increasing Intelligence.

You admit to the fault, then defend it because you can tolerate it.

Just because something is bearable, doesn't mean effort put into improvement is wasted. Here, erasing the fault improves the intergrity of the class in more ways then one. First, it permits the class to come online at 1st-level. No need for a "negative status condition inflicting" perk and a "inflicts bonus damage because the creature suffers a negative status condition" perk. No need to wait until 3rd-level. Second, it improves access to the class concept's core feature. There is no reason why the Team should make it harder to access a class's core feature. Third, it permits the Team to build on it much easier through future perks and items.

That aside, INT isn't even considered a main stat to smugglers. It's REF and PHY/AIM. So why has the Team made INT a substantial stat for smugglers? Once again, the perks meander. These classes have poor foundations.

Let's pack this up too. I don't think there's a meaningful disagreement, if any disagreeement, here.

There's a balance to strike. A Class might not excel vs a given enemy, but it shouldn't be a total shutdown, either (Looking at you, Janeria).

I said nothing adjacent to shutting a class down. I said a class shouldn't excel in all conditions.

In the same paragraph, I pointed out that a smuggler has other tools. Closing out one option isn't a total shutdown.

Let's pack this up too. There's no disagreement.

In a game like this, some degree of item dependency is probably inevitable.

There's no reason for me to believe there's a compelling rationale behind this statement. Under the status quo, the classes function independently from items. Under the revision examples I gave, the classes also function independently from items.

I think you missed my point. A Ranged character can get significant Evasion or Shields from the Melee slot (a slot they're not using). Melee characters who rarely, if ever, use Ranged weapons* don't have much to put in that slot to benefit from. The best is likely either the Warden Shield from Tarkus, or the NaN Deconstructor/Hirudo Devourer because Vampiric doesn't exist on any Melee weapon.
*Especially now that it's possible to hit Flying enemies with Melee weapons.

Understood. I never noticed this, and I have no reason to disagree.

It probably has something to do with the fact that I started with Tech Specialist and Smuggler. I have this idea that taking Health damage is Doing It Wrong. Especially since if you have to use Second Wind, the opponent is just going to hit you again that turn.

I understand. There are three defensive measures: evasion (take no damage), health (suffer more damage before defeat), and shield (forestall taking damage). It just seems like evasion + shield is the more useful option.

My Melee Merc is currently using the Custom Shock Gear, Augment-Weave Armor, Pirate Prototype Shield and Shield Aug Bracers. 300 Shields. Still debating on whether to switch CSG for the Rough Leash. I'm leaning towards 'no'. What is yours using?

Prototype Pirate Shield
Leopard Print Jumpsuit
Queen Nyrean Spear
Saurmorian Railgun
Signet of Bravery

I don't consider this the optimal build. The one needed item is the saurmorian railgun. This thing swiss cheeses enemies using its bonus hit rate, Rapid Fire, and Second Shot for five attacks at 41 kinetic damage, plus bonus damage from Heavy Weapons and Concentrate Fire, and then stagger from Rending Attacks. The other items are interchangeable (TiTs isn't so difficult that a player needs to optimize).

Also, I feel the values on health + defense items are numerically inferior. But I'm not sure if I'm imagining it or if it's the truth.

 

[Theron]

Let's pack this one up.

Fair enough.

That aside, INT isn't even considered a main stat to smugglers. It's REF and PHY/AIM. So why has the Team made INT a substantial stat for smugglers? Once again, the perks meander. These classes have poor foundations.

They probably didn't want there to be a true 'Dump Stat' for any Class. It's used for Grenade, too. Also, because the Smuggler/Rogue archetype usually has an emphasis on cleverness. It may not be a primary stat, but it's definitely a secondary.

Under the status quo, the classes function independently from items. Under the revision examples I gave, the classes also function independently from items.

Disclaimer: All the below is only applicable to actually difficult enemies, mostly bosses. For the most part, you can just go through with basic attacks, so long as you've spend your points decently.

Spoiler: Mercenary

As you note, the Saurmorian Rail Gun is really good. But it's behind a sidequest. If you can KO enemies fast enough, it doesn't matter what the rest of your equipment is.

Melee doesn't have that kind of damage output, unless abusing FZR (Deep Freeze) + Crushing combo, which got severely nerfed. Not sure how I'm going to deal with it. Granted, I was trying to low-stat most of the game, so I could maximize the proportion of training I was doing with the Augment-Weave Armor.

Spoiler: Smuggler

Smugglers want Evasion gear. But not too much, it's capped at 50% (which I think should be more visible to players). Especially if you didn't take Stealth Field Generator, for some reason.

If you're relying on SA/AS, weapon doesn't matter so much. But as we keep going over, Stun helps a lot. I think Stun is adequately available for Melee weapons, but Rapid Fire has warped weapon design for Ranged.

Spoiler: Tech Specialist

Melee is largely independent of weapon. Somewhat less so after the nerf.
Ranged isn't. Overcharge requires an Energy weapon, and you want a good damage Type.

Shield Tech is somewhat independent of a Belt's actual Shields, because of bonus Shields (and so can theoretically focus more on Resistances).

Drone Tech works best with a Drone Accessory. Tam-Wolf 2.0 is behind a sidequest. So is the Laser Drone.
They also don't get a lot of Bonus Shields, so upgrading the Shield Belt is important, though as a Melee Drone Tech, I found my damage output made focusing on Bonus Shield armor unnecessary.

No matter how many bonus Shields you stack, without a Shield Belt you don't have any Shields at all. Also, Shields restored by Power Surge/Deflector Regeneration depends, in part, on maximum Shields.

I understand. There are three defensive measures: evasion (take no damage), health (suffer more damage before defeat), and shield (forestall taking damage). It just seems like evasion + shield is the more useful option.

Part of it is you need to either Rest/Sleep* or use an item** to heal out of combat. Shields regenerate automatically. Another part is Evasion penalties. Each point below 0 total is 3% more Health damage, which leads to my rant on Power Armor.
*Smugglers have the undocumented ability to heal to full with a 4-hour Rest. The others only partially heal.
**Which can only be bought in specific places and not on all planets. And the best is locked behind a sidequest.

I don't consider this the optimal build. The one needed item is the saurmorian railgun. This thing swiss cheeses enemies using its bonus hit rate, Rapid Fire, and Second Shot for five attacks at 41 kinetic damage, plus bonus damage from Heavy Weapons and Concentrate Fire, and then stagger from Rending Attacks. The other items are interchangeable (TiTs isn't so difficult that a player needs to optimize).

Yup, Ranged Merc is considered ridiculously powerful for this reason.

Also, I feel the values on health + defense items are numerically inferior. But I'm not sure if I'm imagining it or if it's the truth.

Spoiler: Power Armor Rant

Power Armor has 2 benefits:
1. High Bonus HP/Defense.
2. Use weapons with the Power Armor flag without 40 Physique.

1. To 'balance' this, they have hefty Evasion penalties. Either you eat the damage, or you offset it with Evasion boosters like the Light Jetpack. Ranged wins here because Rouser.
2. 40 Physique is easy to get and will become easier as the level cap increases, so long as you're willing to put some time in at the Ten Ton Gym. Compounding this is that Power Armor weapons also come with Evasion Penalties, which stack. If you want to use Power Armor weapons, you're better off just getting the Physique and ditching the Armor entirely. If you're a Level 10 Merc, you can just ignore the Physique requirement. Stagger can potentially shut you down, if you have the bare minimum (50 x.08 = 40). Maybe? Haven't tested.
Assuming the penalty actually works. Currently, there's a bug that a lot of Stat decreases don't work. I don't know if Stagger is affected.