Gweyrerk: ロスト・チルドレンの章 (笑)

[MeIsntVeryCreative]

Edit: See https://forum.fenoxo.com/threads/gweyrerk-an-unbridled-follow-up.22866/

Perhaps I have my expectation a lil too high for this one still none of those matter, there is a few problem I had with the Gweyr ♂dungeon (not that part unfortunately). In the end, we are given an option of our opinion regarding Gweyr's decision, so I will assume that the narrative is intended to draw moral/ethics ambiguity. I afraid I had to say, it failed as there is a clear cut conclusion can be drawn to.

Judging from the story I just gone through, there are no other condition that forces Gweyr to

Spoiler: Blood to the Blood God

commit killing spree. As who is effectively a war veteran, I had a hard time to believe that Gweyr and granted in a degree, Sander doesn't know how to disarm/knock someone unconscious.

Hell even amputee is an arguably preferable option compare to drawing false equivalence to justify yourself for dehumanizing town folk's children to meat chunks when mind conditioning in CoC2 in general is not irreversible, unless there are text suggested such measure to be impossible for this specific case, granted it is not as far as I know.

And it is pretty ironic, considering Gunvaldsen literally drop tome of disarm as a reward for the player which is probably intentional I assume.

You could arguably debated back then the Hawkethorne didn't have the capacity to hold them in captivity then again they are literally

Spoiler: eShrug

children that used to live there, doubtful.

I am not actually against darker elements like gore as much as most people would. (I also not opposed to keep Marble's suicide content that the original CoC1 dropped unfortunately) Just like the title has suggested, I am quite a fan for berserk and this quest reminds me of its lost children chapter which definitely share some parallels here and there

Spoiler: READ BERSERK!!!

granted that:

1. Changes happened to children in berserk is pretty much irreversible
2. Apostle-fairies(Transformed children) is a far far more dangerous threat compare to the cultist
3. We already know that Guts in terms of his background and that him lost everything essentially, which is a far far less wholesome compare to the Gweyr and we still barely know nothing about her background in terms of her past.

Really the only thing that says moral/ethics ambiguity about this content is that

Spoiler: Sticky White Stuff

Lumia order hiring Crossed Swords which is pretty interesting. Also I appreciate that this piece addressed the plot-hole that how and why Sander ended up switching faith.

PS: Inari Kinu is basically Blue Reimu but not lazy and job stolen by Asagiri. Where is her お祓い棒 www
PSS: I really needed to use spoiler tag more often

 

[Emerald]

Gweyr ♂

Do you mean the female symbol? That's a male sign. :U

 

[Paradox01]

Do you mean the female symbol? That's a male sign. :U

That's clearly the NATO map symbol for a mortar team that's oriented north east.

 

[Aelana]

That's clearly the NATO map symbol for a mortar team that's oriented north east.

Those NATO plannings must've been so repressed.

 

[WolframL]

I afraid I had to say, it failed as there is a clear cut conclusion can be drawn to.

Disagree, I don't think it's so clear-cut that you can't argue both sides. Even if you personally think one way, the roleplaying element is there and you may have a Champion who'd think differently.

Spoiler: Title Placeholder

I had a hard time to believe that Gweyr and granted in a degree, Sander doesn't know how to disarm/knock someone unconscious, hell even amputee is an arguably preferable option

Spoiler

One could also argue that after giving them multiple warnings, when you find yourself assaulted by a mob who's trying to kill you, self-preservation takes first priority. The time you spend carefully hitting someone in a way to knock them out without causing permanent harm is time for one of their mates to get behind you and stab you in the back. It's not nearly as easy as film and television makes it look.

Also, one could argue that leaving someone without limbs (with reduced or complete inability to work) in a low-technology setting isn't a great option since they'd represent a massive drain on the community resources. The same applies to mass incarceration. Hawkthorne is small and it's extremely unlikely that it has the resources to support a substantial chunk of the working-age population if they're not working.

You could arguably debated back then the Hawkethorne didn't have the capacity to hold them in captivity

And where, pray tell, are you going to hold all of these people? There's nothing like a prison in town much less one with enough room for fifty or so people. Incarceration actually requires some serious resources and a newly-established town that's just trying to survive doesn't have those.

I'm not saying Gweyr's choice was objectively right, only that it's not as straightforward as you think it is.

 

[Malpha]

People were not really imprisoned much in that type of society anyway. It was usually fines, execution, or exile. No one wants to support prisoners.

 

[Shizenhakai]

There where also prisons for people who waited for their trial and prisons for people in debt.

Exile was actually not that common of a sentence, usually reserved for special crimes - or influental people who annoyed the wrong authority.

 

[sumgai]

Spoiler: My thoughts on that I posted earlier on the Discord

If I were to try and put my thoughts in order: There were once two healers. They often quarreled, but worked well together. The first was vital and direct, preferring bold treatment. The second took a more patient view and sought treatment that was less invasive. They took in a new patient. The patient was suffering from an illness, but the two healers couldn't agree on the proper treatment. The first wanted to perform a blood letting. The second wanted to try a measured approach, with herbs to reduce symptoms. However, the patient slipped into a coma, and the arm was afflicted by gangrene. The first healer cut off the arm. When the patient woke up, they were furious. The second healer broke their partnership and never spoke to the first again.

That out of the way:

Spoiler: Use of Forces: HAI YAI, YAI Forces

In a one on one fight, maybe Gweyr could have held back. In a mass melee like that? No way.

 

[MeIsntVeryCreative]

I'm not saying Gweyr's choice was objectively right, only that it's not as straightforward as you think it is.

Then again, given how Gweyr describes the cultists, well being a pushover, as someone who is effective starting a new life as a mother/waitress in Hawkethorne, I seriously don't see how it make sense that Gweyr doesn't try the alternative way to deal with them aside rip and tear, especially when she is dealing with what is effectively other's children to begin with.

What makes it really funny is that when Gweyr self-reflecting that she would probably feel the same if Garret and Gwyn are in there shows that sort of a hypocrite she is. My main problem is that the situation doesn't demands such extreme measures to begin with, jumping to such conclusion so harshly only shows that very VERY flawed, irrational, bloodlusty individual Gweyr is.

My problem is not that Gweyr being a flawed individuals, but lacking an exposition/situations justify/demands such measure to begin with.

Spoiler: Read Berserk

Guts during conviction arc - lost children chapter works because he is acting on rage/vengeance and as someone who has lost everything after the Eclipse, faux-fairies swarm actually poses as a real threat to the village and moreover, Guts himself and further more that transformation of the children that turned to faux-fairies is pretty much irreversible. While in CoC2 Gweyr is exactly opposite of that, Gweyr starting a new life with her own families and she seems to be content with such a lifestyle as well, it just doesn't make sense to me why would she acting like that from the text alone.

Disagree, I don't think it's so clear-cut that you can't argue both sides. Even if you personally think one way, the roleplaying element is there and you may have a Champion who'd think differently.

I suppose the option we are given is a choice to either roleplay as a normal person or a retardo evil individuals can be interpreted as such, but Gweyr asking such question only after describing what she has gone through in such bloody details only shows her how desperately she trying to rationalize herself anyhow, that's how I see it.

 

[MeIsntVeryCreative]

Do you mean the female symbol? That's a male sign. :U

It was supposed to be a reference to gachimuchi dungeon :/

 

[Paradox01]

I suppose the option we are given is a choice to either roleplay as a normal person or a retardo evil individuals can be interpreted as such, but Gweyr asking such question only after describing what she has gone through in such bloody details only shows her how desperately she trying to rationalize herself anyhow, that's how I see it.

I resent the fact that you're implying only retarded/evil people would agree with her methods.

 

[MeIsntVeryCreative]

I resent the fact that you're implying only retarded/evil people would agree with her methods.

Like I said, it is basically a manslaughter lacking any hesitation, I seriously don't see there is any way to justify and rationalize that as a normal/sane individuals. Just I said before, the cultists doesn't poses as real threat to Gweyr, yet she did it anyway.

 

[Paradox01]

Like I said, it is basically a manslaughter lacking any hesitation, I seriously don't see there is any way to justify and rationalize that as a normal/sane individuals. Just I said before, the cultists doesn't poses as real threat to Gweyr, yet she did it anyway.

So if someone has a viewpoint different from yours, they're either retarded or evil. Got it.

I agree with Gweyr's actions, BTW.

 

[MeIsntVeryCreative]

So if someone has a viewpoint different from yours, they're either retarded or evil. Got it.

I agree with Gweyr's actions, BTW.

Perhaps my language is a bit harsh, but just like I said,

I seriously don't see there is any way to justify and rationalize that as a normal/sane individuals.

What strikes me as odd is that you don't follow up your latest post with your own reasoning, why is that I wonder?

 

[sumgai]

Perhaps my language is a bit harsh, but just like I said,

What strikes me as odd is that you don't follow up your latest post with your own reasoning, why is that I wonder?

Because you made an absolute statement about your thoughts with no room for further discourse.

Also Gweyr is a bad ass with abnormally high in-game stats, but if she's cut, she still bleeds. The cultists were absolutely a threat. Striking to render unconscious or maim is tricky, and all the battles were mass melees with no real room to screw around with Batman like tactics. Gweyr was under a time limit. Despite Sander's indignation, does Gweyr's assessment of the situation strike you as wrong, MIVC? That Sanders would have stood there like an idiot, the girl would have been sacrificed, and the cult would have been emboldened to further nefarious deeds?

 

[MeIsntVeryCreative]

Because you made an absolute statement about your thoughts with no room for further discourse.

Also Gweyr is a bad ass with abnormally high in-game stats, but if she's cut, she still bleeds. The cultists were absolutely a threat. Striking to render unconscious or maim is tricky, and all the battles were mass melees with no real room to screw around with Batman like tactics. Gweyr was under a time limit. Despite Sander's indignation, does Gweyr's assessment of the situation strike you as wrong, MIVC? That Sanders would have stood there like an idiot, the girl would have been sacrificed, and the cult would have been emboldened to further nefarious deeds?

Well that is also part of the problem I criticized in my original post, that Sander acting nothing like an idiot, which doesn't make much sense btw.

Time limits can be more and less derived from the fact that a girl is being kidnaped and they are trying to create a portal? Sure but Gweyr personally DOESN'T KNOW THAT and has never suggested from the text. Even lesser reason for her to act that way to begin with. If I am wrong about it, I would like to see citation. I am actually perfectly okay from being proven wrong as long as you made a sensible argument.

 

[MeIsntVeryCreative]

Because you made an absolute statement about your thoughts with no room for further discourse.

Perhaps, I thought the strike-through and obviously derogatory form of retarded would make satire obvious. If it is not, then I apologize.

Also Gweyr is a bad ass with abnormally high in-game stats, but if she's cut, she still bleeds. The cultists were absolutely a threat. Striking to render unconscious or maim is tricky, and all the battles were mass melees with no real room to screw around with Batman like tactics.

I afraid that the gameplay elements has no merit in terms of the writing perspective in this regards. Even then, it actually proves a writing inconsistency that cultist does poses as a threat to Gweyr (which on my gameplay experience they don't just like how Gweyr said) despite gameplay suggested a contrary. Still something worthy to be criticized for nonetheless.

 

[sumgai]

Well that is also part of the problem I criticized in my original post, that Sander acting nothing like an idiot, which doesn't make much sense btw.

Time limits can be more and less derived from the fact that a girl is being kidnaped and they are trying to create a portal? Sure but Gweyr personally DOESN'T KNOW THAT and has never suggested from the text. Even lesser reason for her to act that way to begin with. If I am wrong about it, I would like to see citation. I am actually perfectly okay from being proven wrong as long as you made a sensible argument.

Are you kidding me? Even excluding out of game knowledge, why the would any moral person with the ability to stop the act, let a kidnapper get away with their victim?

Even in current day Hawkthrone, there were two kidnapping events at the present day. The first one, the Champion was too late to stop. The second one, where slavers attempt to kidnap the catgirl Koko. If you don't move fast when dealing with a 'missing person' (in this case kidnapped), the odds of them being recovered diminish the longer they're missing. For all Gweyr knew, they were going to sell her into slavery, maybe brain wash her into joing the cult, rape and kill her, steal her soul or whatever bad end you can imagine. This group had already been openly talking of overthrowing the Baroness.

Sanders standing there was alluded to certain vows of being a 'Warrior of the White'. Without any other information, there's nothing to glean there.

You didn't answer me if you think Gweyr's assessment of the situation was wrong.

 

[Paradox01]

What strikes me as odd is that you don't follow up your latest post with your own reasoning, why is that I wonder?

For the same reasons I don't go to Flat Earth websites and post shit about the earth being round. I'm not an asshole and I have better things to do with my time than beat my head against a wall.

 

[MeIsntVeryCreative]

Are you kidding me? Even excluding out of game knowledge, why the would any moral person with the ability to stop the act, let a kidnapper get away with their victim?

No, I have never said that. You are making a strawman here. My problem is that Gweyr personally never took that in account before starting her butchery. Which is very morally questionable in terms of motivation.

Even in current day Hawkthrone, there were two kidnapping events at the present day. The first one, the Champion was too late to stop. The second one, where slavers attempt to kidnap the catgirl Koko. If you don't move fast when dealing with a 'missing person' (in this case kidnapped), the odds of them being recovered diminish the longer they're missing. For all Gweyr knew, they were going to sell her into slavery, maybe brain wash her into joing the cult, rape and kill her, steal her soul or whatever bad end you can imagine. This group had already been openly talking of overthrowing the Baroness.

Sanders standing there was alluded to certain vows of being a 'Warrior of the White'. Without any other information, there's nothing to glean there.

You didn't answer me if you think Gweyr's assessment of the situation was wrong.

This argument is essentially whether the end justify the mean I would assume. Like I said my problem is more that Gweyr doesn't acted logically like a merc/war veteran nor acting emotionally e.g. give in to her own bloodlust for an example. That is another strawman there.

Also, Gweyr literally also failed to capture/killing Tollus SOMEHOW after all of that which actually disproves your point ironically.

Yes, I very very much agreed that Gweyr is a monster for started killing spree without much her own thought process.

 

[MeIsntVeryCreative]

For the same reasons I don't go to Flat Earth websites and post shit about the earth being round. I'm not an asshole and I have better things to do with my time than beat my head against a wall.

I don't think argumentation is considered a form of assholery yet here we are, a strange time indeed. You are not the first one that would considered me for being asshole for exercising free speech and critical thinking. Unfortunately as flawed as it is, being more agreeable doesn't mean more factually accurate.

 

[Paradox01]

You are not the first one that would considered me for being asshole for exercising free speech and critical thinking.

 

[MeIsntVeryCreative]

View attachment 14996

Whether you agree or disagree in terms of your opinion is unfortunately irrelevant when it comes to debate.

 

[MeIsntVeryCreative]

People were not really imprisoned much in that type of society anyway. It was usually fines, execution, or exile. No one wants to support prisoners.

Not when those prisoners are literally their own people/children. You forgot to take that in account. Imprisonment would be much MUCH more preferable option.

 

[sumgai]

No, I have never said that. You are making a strawman here. My problem is that Gweyr personally never took that in account before starting her butchery. Which is very morally questionable in terms of motivation.

No I'm not. I gave an example. I don't agree with Gweyr's actions, but I do understand them. Because unlike Gweyr, I would've punched Sanders in the face if didn't take action to drive Tollus out sooner.

This argument is essentially whether the end justify the mean I would assume. Like I said my problem is more that Gweyr doesn't acted logically like a merc/war veteran nor acting emotionally e.g. give in to her own bloodlust for an example. That is another strawman there.

The means almost always determines the ends. That said, again: there was no time to formulate a plan. The girl was taken a scant time ago. More distance is being put the between the girl and her rescuers. The first thing Gweyr sees when she exits her house is that River is being attacked at melee range. Besides, most combat plans fall apart at the first contact with their objective.

Also, Gweyr literally also failed to capture/killing Tollus SOMEHOW after all of that which actually disproves your point ironically.

Of course she failed to capture Tollus. This story is set in the past, the actions concrete and immutable. Why bother bring that up? You declined to note that because of her actions, the girl WAS saved.

Yes, I very very much agreed that Gweyr is a monster for started killing spree without much her own thought process.

Okay, you have the option in game to tell her that. I think Gweyr is just a very thorough killer.

Also, can you just edit your posts, instead of double posting please? :x

 

[MeIsntVeryCreative]

Well I appreciated that atleast you are trying to make an argument to say the least.

No I'm not. I gave an example. I don't agree with Gweyr's actions, but I do understand them. Because unlike Gweyr, I would've punched Sanders in the face if didn't take action to drive Tollus out sooner.

Unfortunately that would be classified as false equivalence in terms of debate as that has nothing to do with the point I am making there.

The means almost always determines the ends. That said, again: there was no time to formulate a plan. The girl was taken a scant time ago. More distance is being put the between the girl and her rescuers. The first thing Gweyr sees when she exits her house is that River is being attacked at melee range. Besides, most combat plans fall apart at the first contact with their objective.

No, what you are discussing here before, does the end JUSTIFY the mean not DETERMINE especially through questionable means. Still that doesn't change that my criticism is how does Gweyr draw a conclusion of mass murder essentially.

Thought process and decision making still happened even during dire situation unless one's mental capacity is being overwhelmed and shutdown, which is not suggested through the text, not that which would be less absurd for a veteran.

Granted that Gweyr could've tore his arm/fingers off instead of bending his finger honestly

Or you know, drag him down with his arm, slamming his head into the floor and potentially rendering Tollus unconscious, obviously that would have a detrimental effect to the narrative, as Gweyr knows how to knock someone out unconscious all along, she just doesn't USE IT, that would make her look obviously evil wouldn't it?

Of course she failed to capture Tollus. This story is set in the past, the actions concrete and immutable. Why bother bring that up? You declined to note that because of her actions, the girl WAS saved.

Because you are trying to make her action sensible of course I am gonna bring that up especially since you are debating about whether the end justify the mean and the fact that Tollus escaped is the end of it.

Okay, you have the option in game to tell her that. I think Gweyr is just a very thorough killer.

Also, can you just edit your posts, instead of double posting please? :x

Ugh, quoting option is not available in editing, at least the conventional one. Unfortunately, having an option doesn't make my criticism about the writing less relevant. Also if it has detrimental effect to her Gweyr reunion with her families honestly that would be pretty bad. I only wish that the advice will gave her a chance to self-reflect about her action, not denying her chance to redeem herself, especially given how many years has passed after exile.

 

[sumgai]

Because you are trying to make her action sensible of course I am gonna bring that up. Also that would be considered a plot-hole granted it is still an unfinished game.

Her actions were sensible. TO GWEYR. Again, I don't agree with her actions, but the situation was created by the authors, so we gotta roll with it. Sanders demonstrates no other alternative then to try and stand the cult down. However, his efforts to convince or bluff them were already doomed to failure. I think Gweyr hit the mark when said "He was gonna stand there like an idiot, and after getting cockblocked", the cult would have just gotten emboldened.

There's a disconnect between this story flashback and the game proper: all of Gweyr's fights end with her opponents dead, while the Champion's fights only end up with dead enemies if the player chooses that option(and currently, there's only a handful). After a fight during any other time in the game, the enemy gets fucked/shit stolen/killed/left alone. That might lead to a coloring of perception that it's easy to incapacitate enemies, seeing as after getting a Champion banging (or not) enemies get up and walk away. I think the disconnect is intentional; to remind the players that Savarra is a dangerous place, and sometimes there are no good outcomes. Gweyr doesn't have any abilities to attack enemies resolve, iirc, and no magic to disable them. Of course she's gonna default to what she knows: stabbity stab stab. To tragic results.

Ugh, quoting option is not available in editing, at least the conventional one. Unfortunately, having an option doesn't make my criticism about the writing less relevant. Also if it has detrimental effect to her Gweyr reunion with her families honestly that would be pretty bad. I only wish that the advice will gave her a chance to self-reflect about her action, not denying her chance to redeem herself, especially given how many years has passed after exile.

Are you criticizing the writing or Gweyr's behavior? If you want to say that the situation was dumb and contrived, okay. I'm not gonna argue, because I DO think it was contrived. Gweyr voiced her concerns, Sanders waffled and the situation fester until it became untennable. As for Gweyr's behavior, I feel falls more into moral ambiguity. You feel she's a monster. That's okay. I think she did a monstrous thing for understandable reasons. And that's alright too.

 

[MeIsntVeryCreative]

Again, I don't agree with her actions, but the situation was created by the authors, so we gotta roll with it.

"Don't think, just consoom and wait for the next product."

The point of the criticism is that we wish for something can and could be turned out better by pointing out flaws of it, so suddenly we aren't allowed to criticize I guess.

"You cannot put feedback for a said software because you don't know how to code!!!"
Do you realise how flawed that is in practice?

Before you pull out the "write yourself" card, you know that my username is a protest towards that notion right? I personally don't have much investment for human culture especially literature also it tied to part of my past that making me hesitant to try to say the least.

There's a disconnect between this story flashback and the game proper

I can't see how you claimed that, the result is connected to PC/Gweyr action, Champion gets away because he/she disabled his/her opponents enough to get away, Gweyr's opponent ended up dead because she decided to outright killing them. I don't see there is a disconnection at all.

Ironically, you just made the point of the mean determines the end.

Also did you just proven my point that Gweyr could've disabling them all along?! OMG!!!!

Arguably Champion is far less skilled compare to Gweyr so if Champion could've do it, why not Gweyr? It is the lack of this information I am criticised for.

 

[WolframL]

Not when those prisoners are literally their own people/children. You forgot to take that in account. Imprisonment would be much MUCH more preferable option.

You've failed to address the resource problem I raised earlier. Historically, the very same people that are dying in this scenario are the people who a town is relying on to perform their fair share of the work. These aren't underaged children where nobody expects them to be economically productive, confining them while still providing them support means the town produces less agriculturally while still having as many mouths to feed; It's not a good situation to be in. Also, you're acting like confining these people and preventing them from causing additional harm is an easy task. Personal dwellings aren't designed for long-term confinement. They tend to have things like doors that aren't designed to lock exclusively from the outside, or windows.

Also, you're again ignoring that when a mob of people is attacking you, trying to disable everyone isn't easy. Yes, it can be done but not without risk and when there's one of you and a dozen of them, your first instinct is going to be to stop the people with knives from shanking you, not trying to disable all of them at considerably increased risk to yourself. Gweyr being a veteran doesn't mean jack shit, she's used to killing people who are trying to kill her; guess what everyone in that situation was trying to do?

 

[MeIsntVeryCreative]

You've failed to address the resource problem I raised earlier. Historically, the very same people that are dying in this scenario are the people who a town is relying on to perform its fair share of the work. These aren't underaged children where nobody expects them to be economically productive, confining them while still providing them support means the town produces less agriculturally while still having as many mouths to feed; It's not a good situation to be in. Also, you're acting like confining these people and preventing them from causing additional harm is an easy task. Personal dwellings aren't designed for long-term confinement. They tend to have things like doors that aren't designed to lock exclusively from the outside, or windows.

My point is that those are the mostly if not all exactly the same town people that turned into cultist. I really don't see how much troublesome it can be to make them stay captivated. If you are debating about resource to allocate for the confinement. Perhaps? You also forgot to take account of the people's emotional attachment for them. They literally schemed to revolt against the Baron and the rest of the city order to side with the cult themselves.

Also, you're again ignoring that when a mob of people is attacking you, trying to disable everyone isn't easy. Yes, it can be done but not without risk and when there's one of you and a dozen of them, your first instinct is going to be to stop the people with knives from shanking you, not trying to disable all of them at considerably increased risk. Gweyr being a veteran doesn't mean jack shit, she's used to killing people who are trying to kill her; guess what everyone in that situation was trying to do?

Then again, if you apply enough head trauma or pain enough (sensory overload) you can potentially disable someone is supposed to be a common sense. I really don't see that Gweyr given that the condition she being raised from the background and her experience with her merc she is leading, I don't see how does she not knowing that?!

First of all, Gweyr is not being overwhelmed, far from it, given the skill difference between her and the cultist, so much that numbers almost mean nothing. You literally ignored one of the main point I have made in the previous posts. She literally casually referring to them as meat chunks and take her time killing them, HER OWN WORDS!

You are literally argue that if people get used to kill, they would kill regardless the context the opponent given?