Elven males are still not feminine!

Zerva

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Mar 25, 2016
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Hey, you might recognize me as that dude who made a very similar post about a month and a half ago! Figured I'd wait a few updates and didn't want to necro, so I say: The males elves are not feminine, or event just androgynous!

"They all have a feminine appearance, regardless of actual sex" is what we are told at character creation.

"Overall, your visage has a well-defined jawline, a pair of lean lips, and a fairly masculine profile. Your eyes bear a vertical slit instead of rounded pupils, surrounded by a blue iris. The short, blonde hair on your head can’t hide a pair of triangular, elven ears." is what we are given!

Wyld marks were added some time ago, so I am sure it would not be a huge hassle to give us our traps!
 

Upcast Drake

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So, femininity is the determiner of pronouns. If I were to make male elves anything more than boyish, they'd be called girls (unless you manually changed your preferred gender). I can increase their femininity scores some, but I can't put them over 50 as that's the threshold for when the game considers you a girl.
 

Zerva

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Mar 25, 2016
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So what you are saying, is there is currently no way to be a feminine male, with the game in its current state? Interesting!
 

Upcast Drake

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So what you are saying, is there is currently no way to be a feminine male, with the game in its current state? Interesting!
It depends what you mean by feminine male. Femininity determines what gender people refer to you as by default since they do not know what is in your pants. If you want to look like a girl (femininity score >= 50) but be referred to as a male, then the only way is to set your preferred pronouns from the appearance screen. There is no way for me to automatically detect the difference between a flat-chested dickgirl and a trap. Or say a dickgirl and a trap with a-cups. The default is dickgirl, if you want to be a trap you change the pronouns.

You can be a "feminine boy" in the sense of "feminine, for a boy" by having a femininity score between 40-49. In this zone you are still considered male by the game, but it should describe your features as more androgynous.
 

Zerva

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Mar 25, 2016
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I feel like that should be the case. It says ALL men, not some, not a few, not most, all elves are feminine. Unless transformation is involved the given lore should mean that they should be feminine, full stop.

Otherwise it's a contradiction, and should be amended in lore or in game, IMO

This isn't about pronouns, just physical appearance, and our physical appearance is 'masculine' by default which it shouldn't be.
 

Zerva

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Mar 25, 2016
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But why not just make the character gen males as feminine as a female? I just don't see why the lore needs to be ammended, people can set pronouns as you said they can. Why not just make them feminine in look?

Kaithritt in TiTS have a more female look and that's fine, why can't elves have that? I just don't see your reasoning. Someone wrote the race with a clear intention I feel.
 

Upcast Drake

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I can make them androgynous. If I make them more feminine than that they will be called girls by default, which I don't think people picking an elf male want. Yes, they could switch the pronouns, but I don't think you should have to when you select male at char gen.
 

Zerva

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Mar 25, 2016
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Well, that's a matter of debate. Maybe consider bringing this up with those who wrote the race or Savin himself since this feels like a strange hang up.

I'm cool with androgynous, but I still feel the intent of the race is to be traps, shemales, and females. I'm willing to be incorrect but that's my read, and if people take issue with there being no masculine elves that should be remedied with transformations.

You are suggesting taking away from the race's identity.
 

Zerva

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Mar 25, 2016
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As a final note: You said, you can -choose- a pronoun. Default is just default, it shouldn't be a factor so much as stated lore should be.
 

Upcast Drake

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The threshold to be considered female for wyld elves is now 55 instead of 50, and male wyld elves now have 51 femininity by default. This should make more androgynous/feminine descriptors proc while still having them be referred to as males.
 

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Stemwinder

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Jun 15, 2018
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It depends what you mean by feminine male. Femininity determines what gender people refer to you as by default since they do not know what is in your pants. If you want to look like a girl (femininity score >= 50) but be referred to as a male, then the only way is to set your preferred pronouns from the appearance screen. There is no way for me to automatically detect the difference between a flat-chested dickgirl and a trap. Or say a dickgirl and a trap with a-cups. The default is dickgirl, if you want to be a trap you change the pronouns.

You can be a "feminine boy" in the sense of "feminine, for a boy" by having a femininity score between 40-49. In this zone you are still considered male by the game, but it should describe your features as more androgynous.
While the lore issue here has been addressed it might be a good idea to go ahead and tackle this larger issue now while the game is still young and it wouldn't be a nightmare. When I was playing around doing some playtesting I noticed that some effort was made to set up distinguished body archetypes in anticipation of this problem where it's hard for the parser to make a distinction between something like a dickgirl and a trap. Using the gender-locker as a way to do it was a good idea, I think, but then all of the descriptors sound a little off. One in particular I noticed was the Cait character still referring to a trap character as 'handsome', as if he was rugged, instead of 'cute' which would probably suit this type of character more and satisfy those who want to play that way.

I'm guessing these types of descriptions are a simple his/her parser call. Since you set up the game to be able to recognize distinct body types one way to go about this could be to add a few custom rules to each one, like these feminine guy characters returning the typically "her" descriptions on the his/her call while still using male pronouns. I haven't checked yet whether a butch girl is a distinct category but that could work the opposite way and each of these (male, female, shemale, trap, etc) could also be a possible flag for a writer to take advantage of if they wanted to add a custom descriptor for only a certain body type in a scene.

Thinking back Fall of Eden had set up a very believable system for this. I've no idea what the technical details were for how it was set to work but characters with deceptive appearances would return responses that lined up with their appearance (people would assume a feminine guy character was a girl, for instance) until a certain point, usually when they saw the PC naked, after which they'd know better but it still wouldn't turn out odd descriptors like referring to a max feminine dickgirl as ruggedly handsome. It'd be hard to imitate that without knowing the exact details of its setup but one improvement that could be made immediately is adding one step to the character creator that sets the gender lock. Since that's not how it's used in TiTS I don't think many people know that for the game to consider the character a trap they need to go in and change that manually (even if it doesn't do much at the moment).
 

Upcast Drake

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May 27, 2017
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While the lore issue here has been addressed it might be a good idea to go ahead and tackle this larger issue now while the game is still young and it wouldn't be a nightmare. When I was playing around doing some playtesting I noticed that some effort was made to set up distinguished body archetypes in anticipation of this problem where it's hard for the parser to make a distinction between something like a dickgirl and a trap. Using the gender-locker as a way to do it was a good idea, I think, but then all of the descriptors sound a little off. One in particular I noticed was the Cait character still referring to a trap character as 'handsome', as if he was rugged, instead of 'cute' which would probably suit this type of character more and satisfy those who want to play that way.

I'm guessing these types of descriptions are a simple his/her parser call. Since you set up the game to be able to recognize distinct body types one way to go about this could be to add a few custom rules to each one, like these feminine guy characters returning the typically "her" descriptions on the his/her call while still using male pronouns. I haven't checked yet whether a butch girl is a distinct category but that could work the opposite way and each of these (male, female, shemale, trap, etc) could also be a possible flag for a writer to take advantage of if they wanted to add a custom descriptor for only a certain body type in a scene.

Thinking back Fall of Eden had set up a very believable system for this. I've no idea what the technical details were for how it was set to work but characters with deceptive appearances would return responses that lined up with their appearance (people would assume a feminine guy character was a girl, for instance) until a certain point, usually when they saw the PC naked, after which they'd know better but it still wouldn't turn out odd descriptors like referring to a max feminine dickgirl as ruggedly handsome. It'd be hard to imitate that without knowing the exact details of its setup but one improvement that could be made immediately is adding one step to the character creator that sets the gender lock. Since that's not how it's used in TiTS I don't think many people know that for the game to consider the character a trap they need to go in and change that manually (even if it doesn't do much at the moment).
The issue with handsome/cute thing is that it just does a check on male/female that takes preference into account. I can change these to do male/female based solely on femininity and disregarding preference. The "body archetypes" are sort of in limbo right now. They aren't used for anything other than the save menu slots, and I think there's too many for them to be useful for writers. We'll see though.