Dual Wielding vs Single Weapon

[Mad Dog]

I've got a thief build and have been wondering now which does more damage.

I'm currently running with the balanced blade as my main weapon, and the chrysanthemum petal as the offhand.

 

[VerySexyGrammar]

There's no simple answer.

Dual-Wielding generally gives you a bigger base damage value. For example, you can leave Hawkethorne at level 1 with 58 base damage just with a Short Sword and a Dagger, while even Two-Handed weapons that you get later in the game almost never get more than 50 base damage total (the Bessy Mauler is the only exception I know of at 55 base damage, and it's got penalties). It also gives you a more stable damage output due to doubling the number of attacks that you perform, flattening the randomness.

But there are other factors at play. Powers that add Attack Power, for example, don't usually affect your off-hand weapon's damage while they would affect a Two-Handed weapon's entire damage. And the other stats on the off-hand weapon will be reduced. You might think Disarm effects would only be able to affect one weapon at a time, but if you get Disarmed both your weapons become inactive.

Different weapon configurations will yield different advantages and disadvantages, which is what you want in a video game.

 

[Burnerbro]

At low levels even if you focus on overcoming it, the Accuracy penalty is just too steep IMO, leading to you dealing less damage overall due to misses. So if you are dead set on dual-wielding, you will need to wait until you at least get high enough Agility and maybe one of the powers that actually utilizes both weapons.

 

[Bobonga]

I've got a thief build and have been wondering now which does more damage.

I'm currently running with the balanced blade as my main weapon, and the chrysanthemum petal as the offhand.

You should put the petal in the main hand. Simply bcause it has -10 accuracy in the offhand, the balanced blade has 0 accuracy in the offhand.

 

[VerySexyGrammar]

You should put the petal in the main hand. Simply bcause it has -10 accuracy in the offhand, the balanced blade has 0 accuracy in the offhand.

Is it mathematically better to have two attacks at +0 than having one attack at +10 and one attack at -10?

Admittedly here there's the additional issue of which item you want to crit more often. Both of these weapons trigger a special effect on a crit, and whatever effect you prefer should dictate which weapon goes in your main hand.

 

[Bobonga]

Is it mathematically better to have two attacks at +0 than having one attack at +10 and one attack at -10?

That I don't know. Math isn't my strongsuit.

Admittedly here there's the additional issue of which item you want to crit more often. Both of these weapons trigger a special effect on a crit, and whatever effect you prefer should dictate which weapon goes in your main hand.

The Petal is way better, because of the bless effect and acces to ranged powers. Also, the additional 15% crit dmg of the balanced blade is a dmg trap. Both the Petal and the sharp sickle outdamage the balanced blade on regular attacks and crits.

 

[VerySexyGrammar]

Agreed, in general I'd think you'd want the Petal in the main hand. Even if you don't use any Ranged powers, the better damage type alone is considerable, and that Blessed buff is crazy good, certainly way better than 15% extra damage that only triggers on a crit.

Sickle's a pretty good weapon, half the damage is Raw for some reason and it's got 10 Armor Penetration while the Balanced Blade has none.

I think it would take a very high Accuracy/Crit build to make the Balanced Blade worth it, and even then I suspect the Short Sword might almost always be better. It's silly but while the Balanced Blade's special effect is "Deals 15% more damage on a crit", the Short Sword's higher base damage essentially means its special effect is "Deals 17% more damage on a crit and 17% more damage on a hit" which is obviously way, way better. It does have much less Accuracy, but more Armor Penetration.

It's quite remarkable how strong the basic weapons are.

 

[Burnerbro]

You should put the petal in the main hand. Simply bcause it has -10 accuracy in the offhand, the balanced blade has 0 accuracy in the offhand.

AFAIK, the Accuracy stat is totaled and used for both weapons, and the -10 penalty for dual wielding is applied on top of any such penalties provided by the weapons, so only other stats of each individual weapon should be considered when deciding whether to equip it in your main or off hand.

 

[VerySexyGrammar]

AFAIK, the Accuracy stat is totaled and used for both weapons, and the -10 penalty for dual wielding is applied on top of any such penalties provided by the weapons, so only other stats of each individual weapon should be considered when deciding whether to equip it in your main or off hand.

Huh... Accuracy bonuses on weapons don't show up in the character's stats, so I always thought they only applied to the weapon itself when it was used.

 

[Burnerbro]

I could swear that they do... And that the impact of dual wielding on the hit percentages of the main weapon was quite visible, too.

Well then, I guess it is time for more testing.

 

[VerySexyGrammar]

I could swear that they do... And that the impact of dual wielding on the hit percentages of the main weapon was quite visible, too.

Well then, I guess it is time for more testing.

Testing is always the answer.

I remember expecting to see my Accuracy to be +54 on my character sheet, but it was only +44. I equipped and unequipped some weapons with no change, then I unequipped both my rings (+5 Accuracy each) and saw that I'd gone down to +34. From that point on I assumed that the Accuracy on weapons worked for individual attacks made with those weapons, but I can't be 100% sure. It's just what the character sheet hints at.

 

[Kingu2]

I could swear that they do... And that the impact of dual wielding on the hit percentages of the main weapon was quite visible, too.

Well then, I guess it is time for more testing.

No and it tells you that in the codex. accuracy and crit chance on weapons don't show up in character stats because they only apply when you use the weapon, which not all attacks do. And yes I'm fairly certain that accuracy and crit chance are calculated separately for each weapon just like the rest of it's stats.

 

[Mad Dog]

@VerySexyGrammar @Burnerbro @Bobonga

Good discussion. To be more specific, my thief is max level and has maxed out the strength, agility, and cunning stats.

Also, it seems like the balanced blade isn't the best option for a damage dual wielding build.

Would you rather have the Sharp Sickle, Sanctified Gladius, or the Short Sword?

 

[Kingu2]

@VerySexyGrammar @Burnerbro @Bobonga

Good discussion. To be more specific, my thief is max level and has maxed out the strength, agility, and cunning stats.

Also, it seems like the balanced blade isn't the best option for a damage dual wielding build.

Would you rather have the Sharp Sickle, Sanctified Gladius, or the Short Sword?

you can't really say objectively which one is "the best" simply because they all do about the same amount of damage in a vacuum. they perform differently against different enemies due to they're armor and resistances.

currently the enemies in the undermountain have a ton of armor, and penetrating resist as well as evasion. so the best of these options is probably the sickle for that area with it's armor penetration and raw damage type.

 

[Bobonga]

you can't really say objectively which one is "the best" simply because they all do about the same amount of damage in a vacuum. they perform differently against different enemies due to they're armor and resistances.

currently the enemies in the undermountain have a ton of armor, and penetrating resist as well as evasion. so the best of these options is probably the sickle for that area with it's armor penetration and raw damage type.

I agree

 

[VerySexyGrammar]

Would you rather have the Sharp Sickle, Sanctified Gladius, or the Short Sword?

By design, they're all pretty close. Personally, stats-wise, I'd probably pick the Sickle; it has a lower total damage value but has Raw damage, and Accuracy (which the two swords don't have) in addition to the Armor Penetration. But they're all roughly as powerful as each other and all viable choices.

 

[kiby]

There's also the kunai as an off-hand option, since it applies 2 turns of bleed on every hit.

 

[Burnerbro]

No and it tells you that in the codex.

The Codex's explanations for the game's mechanics are voefully put of date, for the most part.

But in this particular case it seems to be correct on both counts: the Character screen doesn't show any overall accuracy dips from dual-wielding; and after four or so dozen runs onto the same enemy group (basic wolves in the Forest) with a Short Sword and Dagger combo, it seems like the main weapon's accuracy isn't affected after all.

 

[Kingu2]

The Codex's explanations for the game's mechanics are voefully put of date, for the most part.

They haven't actually changed is the thing though. the core mechanics have been tweaked plenty of times but everything in the codex has remained the same with resolve gain on level up being the only exception.

 

[Blueboy]

Would you rather have the Sharp Sickle, Sanctified Gladius, or the Short Sword?

I prefer Kunai for anything thing that bleeds and Santfied for anything that can't bleed due to its high attack stat. The bleed from kunai, is basically raw damage that can proc multiple times before your next turn and it gives you an easy way to proc twist the knife and keep it up indefinitely through a fight.