Dual-Wielding Balance Feedback (0.0.17)

Discussion in 'Corruption of Champions II' started by Savin, Jul 7, 2018.

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Does Dual-Wielding Feel Balanced?

  1. Yes! You done good, Savvers!

    71.4%
  2. No! Two-weapons feels too weak!

    14.3%
  3. No! Two-weapons feels too strong!

    14.3%
  1. Savin

    Savin Master Analmander
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2015
    Hi! You can now dual-wield any two Light weapons -- daggers, short swords, and francescas (handaxes). Currently, the off-hand slot weapon gives you only a fraction of its statistic changes, deals 25% less damage, and has -15% Accuracy. Off-hand attacks cannot crit.

    Currently, there's a theory that two-weapon fighting might be a little too strong compared to using a two-handed weapon like the poleaxe. If that's the case (or the opposite!) we'd love to hear from you guys <3
     
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  2. PendraZera

    PendraZera Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    After doing a fair few fights with both a poleaxe, and a curved sword+handaxe, they seem around even to me. When I could win a fight (those harpies got buffed to hard, 211 damage in 3 turns, while I'm in full heavy armor?) It usually only took 3-4 turns with either setup.
    Playing a warrior with all level ups put into strength choices.
     
  3. Upcast Drake

    Upcast Drake Well-Known Member
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2017
    Being able to use a non-light weapon in the primary slot is a bug. Next patch you won't be able to have curved sword + handaxe. Also, the harpies are only stronger because the gear is stronger. Nothing about them was changed other than the item rebalance.
     
  4. PendraZera

    PendraZera Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Now that I know I was bugging, and what it was supposed to be, I did some more testing. All of this was done with Cait along, since I doubt I would've survived otherwise most times. I figured doing a 'nothing but pressing attack' test would be somewhat good, since...well, you can do that in the other games, and be fine. Would definitely not do it here, after how many losses this put me through. Losses not logged, as there was a lot of them...
    Lv3 Warrior, all points into strength and...whatever wasn't cunning, I think, in the level up menu.

    Armor:
    Ward Amulet, Flame Cape, Mail Cuirass, plain underwear, Gauntlets, Iron Greaves, Wizard Ring

    Pole axe
    Summoner wins times pressed Attack button: 2, 3, 2, 3,
    Wyvern wins times pressed Attack button: 5, 6, 5, 3, 4, 3, 4, 7, 6,
    Harpy wins times pressed Attack button: Couldn't win a single time. Came close once, but ultimately failed.

    Short sword+dagger
    Summoner wins times pressed Attack button: 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 1
    Wyvern wins times pressed Attack button: 3, 5, 3, 3, 3
    Harpy wins times pressed Attack button: 4, 7, 6, 5, 5,

    So, I dont know how much this actually reveals, but dual wielding does seem stronger by some degree. Honestly feels needed atm, with how much harder enemies hit.
     
  5. Upcast Drake

    Upcast Drake Well-Known Member
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2017
    In theory the poleaxe should be better with abilities, since they add multiplicative damage scaling and it has a higher base damage.
     
  6. PendraZera

    PendraZera Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Redid the test with that in mind, aimed for at least 5 hits with each Rend, Amazon Strike, and Thundstrike. Same gear setup as before, Cait and all.

    Pole axe
    Ability Damage
    Rend:
    87 damage. 82 damage. 83 damage: bleeding. 91 damage: bleeding. 86 damage: bleeding.

    Amazon Strike:
    146 damage.Miss.Miss.Miss.145 damage.Miss.145 damage.142 damage.Miss.Miss.143 damage.

    Thunderstrike:
    Miss.138 damage: sundered armor.Miss.Miss.147 damage: sundered armor.138 damage: sundered armor.143 damage: sundered armor.138 damage: sundered armor.

    Short sword+dagger
    Ability Damage
    Rend:
    103 damage crit. : bleed, 33 dagger hit.
    73 damage: bleed, 29 dagger hit.
    95 damage crit. : bleed, 32 dagger hit.
    68 damage: bleed, 30 dagger hit.
    70 damage: bleed, 31 dagger hit.
    73 damage: bleed, 33 dagger hit.
    71 damage: bleed, 31 dagger hit crit.

    Amazon Strike:
    120 damage: 30 dagger hit.
    156 damage crit. : 30 dagger hit crit.
    113 damage: 32 dagger hit.
    121 damage: 33 dagger hit.
    121 damage: 30 dagger hit crit.
    121 damage: 32 dagger hit.
    114 damage: 31 dagger hit.

    Thunderstrike:
    127 damage: sundered armor, dagger miss.
    124 damage: sundered armor, 30 dagger hit.
    117 damage: sundered armor, 31 dagger hit crit.
    116 damage: sundered armor, 29 dagger hit crit.
    118 damage: sundered armor, dagger miss.

    Seems pretty clear, even with this tiny sample size, that dual wielding is leagues better for abilities in some cases, and on par in others.
     
  7. phaos

    phaos Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    The Thief feels really good with dual-wield right now, in that once you're DWing and especially have the extra attack available from being level 2 you're able to mess up harpies quick enough to almost always win before you get gibbed by bad luck.

    So it feeling good actually brings up a potential balance concern: Once more of the game is in the second tanky companion that support classes like White Mage and Charmer so desperately need will start being available, right? Feeling good when you're effectively a man (or minotaur) down is definitely something to watch out for (though it might just be the more dps-y classes being early bloomers).
     
  8. Ferhargo

    Ferhargo New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    It feels to me more that two-handing is just really weak. dual wielding is fine if comparing a trade-off against a sword&board defensive style, you give up an appreciable amount of resistance to almost all damage for an extra chunk of like 50-60% damage if accuracy modifiers and losing crit and armor pen are penciled in with fudge values. it's just that two-handing loses in both defense and damage to its competitors and there's no reason to ever do it because you can do better at both in other ways. The weapons themselves are... questionably balanced, I think is the issue. Just looking at stats, and based on my own experimentation as both Thief and Warrior:

    Dual Short Swords:
    Primary is Accuracy 15, Crit 10, ArmorPen 10, 32 damage
    Secondary: accuracy 0, crit 0, ArmorPen 3, 24 damage
    I don't have the game's damage calculations on hand to figure out numbers accounting for accuracy, crits, armor pen, etc. of course, but this is about 56 damage if you assume the modifiers aren't taken into account.

    Using Daggers:
    Primary: Accuracy 10, Crit 15, ArmorPen 15, Evasion 5, 28 damage
    Secondary: Accuracy -5, Crit 0, ArmorPen 4, Evasion 2, 21 damage
    Bit less accurate and damaging, but a bit harder to hit and better against armor/when crit fishing. 49 damage versus 56, and Evasion 7 is easy enough to count without needing to know combat calcs.

    Franisca:
    Primary: Accuracy 0, Crit 0, ArmorPen 5, Evasion 5, 30 damage
    Offhand: Accuracy -15, Crit 0, ArmorPen 2, Evasion 2, 23 damage.
    Seemingly the inferior option. 2 more damage for a lot worse accuracy, crit, and armor pen.

    Comparatively, a two-handed combatant:
    Pike: Accuracy 10, ArmorPen 5, Crit 0, Evasion 10, Damage 35.
    Poleaxe: Accuracy -10, ArmorPen 0, Crit 0, Evasion 5, Damage 40
    Hunting Bow: Accuracy 10, ArmorPen 0, Crit 0, Evasion 10, Damage 28
    Warbow: Accuracy 5, ArmorPen 10, Crit 0, Evasion 10, Damage 32
    In general you have less damage output compared to dual wielding, worse accuracy, worse armor performance, and worse crit, in exchange for some evasion. But dual daggers gets you 7 Evasion when dual wielding which does away with that 'advantage', while still having at least a bit better performance everywhere else.

    Sword&Board:
    Shortsword+Hoplon Shield: Accuracy 15, ArmorPen 10, Crit 10, Evasion 10, PhysResist 10, Armor 5, MagicResist 5, Damage 32. (Tower shield for +5 Armor -5 Evasion, Wicker for -5 Physical, +10 Ward, +5 Magic Resist)
    Curved Blade+Hoplon: Accuracy -5, ArmorPen 10, Crit 5, Evasion 10, PhysResist 10, Armor 5, MagicResist 5, damage 35
    Battleaxe is literally just an inferior Shortsword.
    Dagger + Hoplon: Accuracy 10, ArmorPen 15, Crit 15, Evasion 15, etc, damage 28

    Sword&Shield has 3 less damage than, say, the Pike, for significantly better general defense. Poleaxe has a sizable chunk of extra damage, but much worse in all other properties. Warbow is worse or equivalent at every stat. etc. etc.

    dual wielding gets you more damage per round with any combination of short swords and daggers than what a two-handed weapon will provide, and generally with better accuracy, anti-armor, and crit. You're just slightly less defensive. But one handed weapons paired with shields gives you just slightly less damage than many two handed weapons (especially if accuracy can be taken into account and you have a Shortsword), for better defense.

    I think what it boils down to is that Shortswords are just far too good, or perhaps all the other weapons are much worse than they should be. Other weapons have SLIGHTLY more damage in exchange for inferiority in basically all other aspects, and Shortsword makes up the damage by being Light and just dual wielding, or can make up a defensive deficit by just having a shield without any real problems for end damage output. After Shortswords Daggers are probably the next best weapon for damage output, and are probably the best defensive weapon because they come with Evasion and can be stacked with a shield.



    tl;dr: weapons need a serious rebalance in general. Shortsword is practically the best weapon no matter what, because defensively you can chuck on a shield, offensively you can dual wield them. Two-handed weapons probably need a buff across the board because right now they're kinda just an inferior bastard child of dual wielding and S&B combat, and worse at both. All weapons that AREN'T the shortsword probably need a buff, at least comparative to their price. The Curved Blade is terrible and is also the most expensive weapon available. Weapons seem to work on a principle that a few points of damage are more valuable than practically every other stat, which i disagree with based on combat testing. A Poleaxe, the strongest weapon, might do around 50 damage to a light weapon Shortsword's 40, and the Poleaxe is going to miss a lot more, do worse against armor, and crit much less frequently. It's hard to say if two-weapon fighting is 'too strong' offensively when I'd probably choose to just wield a single shortsword and shield over most of the two-handed weapons for offense.

    In actual combat you have a real risk of losing fights against the Harpies, even if you're dual wielding. Just depends on your luck, unless you happen to have Cleave, in which case you still very well might lose if the Wingleader sings everyone back onto their feet. So Dual Wielding doesn't make combat a cake walk, nor does tanking with sword&Board, but going two-handed makes it a lot harder on you.

    Also currently it's possible to glitch the game with inventory shenanigans that I did on accident, so you can throw a Light weapon into the second slot without it taking any off-hand penalties. So that's neat.
     
  9. Upcast Drake

    Upcast Drake Well-Known Member
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2017
    There's a bug right now where if you equip two light weapons you can then equip a non-light one-handed weapon in the primary slot. The UI basically checks if you have two light weapons equipped to determine if the reduced stats should be displayed so it'll show full stats, but the actual combat engine will still apply the penalties. This will be fixed next patch.

    As far as why two-hand weapons stats are so low, the theory is that having a few points of higher damage is actually really good since (most) powers apply multiplicative and not additive bonuses. These bonuses are also only applied to the primary weapon hit. So if a power gives +150% attack power, that's the base damage times 2.5. So, 35 for the pike would become 87.5, and 28 for the dagger would become 70. I agree that the stats for two-hand weapons are probably still too low, but that's the philosophy behind how we're trying to balance them. We'll probably throw them a bone soon.

    Another point that needs to be mentioned is that many powers will have weapon requirements. In the future you won't be able to use thunder strike with a bow, for instance. I just haven't gotten around to implementing these yet since there isn't a ton of variety in powers right now so it'd be very limiting. This opens up the possibility for two-hand (or dual wield) only powers that can provide non-stat advantages to them.
     
  10. Upcast Drake

    Upcast Drake Well-Known Member
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2017
    Also I feel I should mention, there is another bug I just fixed that's still on live where all gear stats other than damage, accuracy, and crit are being set to 0.25 instead of their normal values. I added logic that was meant to multiply off-hand weapons' stats by 0.25 (to make them 25%), but I fucked up my parenthesis and so it is instead setting all stats to 0.25 (yes, less than 1). This is why people have been noting that heavy armor feels like cardboard, it basically is right now :p
     
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  11. phaos

    phaos Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Presumably a DW-only skill might do a combined hit for more damage with both weapons or somesuch.

    Though that's hardly necessary, you could also have it incorporate the second weapon's action to provide some kind of buff or debuff.
     
  12. YSlayer

    YSlayer Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2017
    Kind of odd though. I'd generally think of a fast dual dagger character as one that is focused on skills and finesse and a brute wielding a giant great sword as someone that would just swing hard and fast without anything too fancy. With the way it seems to be set up, its the opposite in this game with dual wielders having the advantage in basic attacks and two handers having the weapon skill advantage.

    The kind of character I'd want using dual wielding would be high dex type characters so I would hope something in the damage formula would reflect that. Perhaps higher damage but lower accuracy than two handers so only high accuracy characters could really make use of dual wielding. Disabling crit on the second weapon also seems to be working against the character type that would want to use this.

    I also don't think it'd be unreasonable to give two handers a little extra defense. Maybe like 1/3rd-1/4th of what a shield would provide. Just my thoughts.
     
  13. ArisVangua

    ArisVangua Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2018
    Taking into consideration of the fact that one hands offer the option for defense or two hits with two weapon, while two hander is naturally just the stronger option, because the weapon is bigger and heavier for damage if you're not using a shield, or another weapon for two hits, I do want to introduce the idea to make it so that the two hits should be close to two hander damage if not 15-20% less. In a way that's more strats tho, like for example, it does indeed do less damage but introduces something like two hits that has something like poison applied to it that stacks up to make it worthwhile to invest into it, or combinations of stuff like hitting them with oil and after fire to spark a flame and burn the target, simple stuff like that. Essentially you're giving up the option for defense for two weapons, but why two weapons when a two hander is suppose to do more damage, and if it does more damage than a two hander, why use a two handed weapon at all.

    Losing hit chances makes no sense, since usually if you miss with the first weapon, the idea is the second weapon is there to make sure you hit with the second strike, but why not add something like weapon experience that adds 1% hit chance back every so and so level to even it off a bit. Or let the weapon crit but the chance is significantly lower so the few times it does crit, it actually rarely surpasses two handers or does the same damage.

    Perhaps it adds more evasion or something related into the equation.

    The coolest interaction I've seen was with in cases with Cleave, where you hit everyone twice, or just in general, so adding to it, what if a skill says, "Oh you can use this skill twice before it goes on cooldown and if you do it stuns them or does this" and with dual wielding, the second weapon triggers it as well in one turn allowing a bit of something new.

    So in short, nerf the damage, but add in new mechanics later that evens it up a bit, one strong hit vs two seperate hits with separate hit chances that is weaker but allows near the same damage for some unique mechanic that adds in status or more damage.

    Two hander obviously has the advantage for skills already, scaling well with the high attack, I'm not sure how it is with dual wielding, but from what I can assume it's taking the single hand weapon's stats only, that already means weaker skill attack if I'm right, plus the second hit after the skill is used. Perhaps up the scaling to x1.75 of total weapon damage to two hander vs 1.5 if a dual wielding set.

    Just food for thoughts, I'm no pro haha.