Catch-up XP?

[Alliebutt]

Guess this post is meant to primarily for the devs, or just to hear if anyone knows anything about potential catch-up XP in the future of the game in general. I basically reached level 6 (full bar) before even going to the Winter City, and I'm curious whether there will be any way to make up for lost XP later. I'd like to stay with my primary save as new updates are released, but at this point I'm kinda worried I'm shooting myself in the foot by doing all the quests when I'm not actually gaining the intended XP from doing them. I'm about to finally catch up and reach what parts of Khor'minos is out so far, but as I said I'm worried I'll just have to start over in the future so I won't eventually end up being underleveld for any future content.

On a side-note, it's frustrating to only be able to get 5 tails a kitsune due to the level-cap damnit! xD

 

[Alypia]

Guess this post is meant to primarily for the devs, or just to hear if anyone knows anything about potential catch-up XP in the future of the game in general. I basically reached level 6 (full bar) before even going to the Winter City, and I'm curious whether there will be any way to make up for lost XP later. I'd like to stay with my primary save as new updates are released, but at this point I'm kinda worried I'm shooting myself in the foot by doing all the quests when I'm not actually gaining the intended XP from doing them. I'm about to finally catch up and reach what parts of Khor'minos is out so far, but as I said I'm worried I'll just have to start over in the future so I won't eventually end up being underleveld for any future content.

You can currently fill the XP meter to the point of getting enough to level up to 7 as soon as level 7 drops.

Since low-level encounters are generally worth not all that much XP compared to at-level ones, you're really not missing out on much if anything. Leveling is not designed to be a trial in this game.

 

[Bobonga]

You can also hoard razorcup nectar. Bunch of bosses drop it and Kohaku sells it every now and then.

 

[Alliebutt]

Phew, that's reassuring! I was super worried I'd end up fucking myself (Which is infinitely less fun than fucking with someone else) by going ahead with the story. I will admit though, that even as a fully maxed out level 6 char, the later fights past the Winter City do start to turn pretty difficult. That might well just be me doing shit optimization though, so I can't really blame that on not being a higher level

 

[Bobonga]

That might well just be me doing shit optimization though, so I can't really blame that on not being a higher level

That's because the undermountain enemies are meant for level 7 characters. As well as the rift. You are literally always underlevelled for these encoutners and you can't do anything about it.

 

[Alliebutt]

That's because the undermountain enemies are meant for level 7 characters. As well as the rift. You are literally always underlevelled for these encoutners and you can't do anything about it.

Excuse me for asking then, but why then haven't they raised the level-cap? It seems kinda silly to keep releasing content that the players aren't actually equipped to deal with. Like sure I get there's probably work involved with figuring out abilities and balance and shit, but if they keep releasing content without actually making it possible for the player to feasibly beat it, then eventually they'll just be releasing content that no-one is going to play simply due to the sheer difficulty involved in being so underpowered.

 

[Bobonga]

Excuse me for asking then, but why then haven't they raised the level-cap? It seems kinda silly to keep releasing content that the players aren't actually equipped to deal with. Like sure I get there's probably work involved with figuring out abilities and balance and shit, but if they keep releasing content without actually making it possible for the player to feasibly beat it, then eventually they'll just be releasing content that no-one is going to play simply due to the sheer difficulty involved in being so underpowered.

As far as I know there are 2 reasons: First, they want to do a combat and item stat rework next year. Second is that apparently the new class skills at lvl 7 are really powerfull, but I don't know what they are. So they want to incorporate them with the rework. Else they have to balance evrything twice, for no reason.

But it is not planned to make the game more difficult, without giving the player a chance to catch up. In fact a big reason for the combat rework is that big enemy groups are somewhat unfair to fight.

Also, while we are underleveled for the rift and undermountain, these areas are still manageable. Else no one could beat them without lowering the difficulty. But I agree that they are a difficulty spike.

Lastly, I'm not involved in the making process what so ever. These informations might not be 100% accurate, but still show the grand picture.

 

[Alliebutt]

As far as I know there are 2 reasons: First, they want to do a combat and item stat rework next year. Second is that apparently the new class skills at lvl 7 are really powerfull, but I don't know what they are. So they want to incorporate them with the rework. Else they have to balance evrything twice, for no reason.

But it is not planned to make the game more difficult, without giving the player a chance to catch up. In fact a big reason for the combat rework is that big enemy groups are somewhat unfair to fight.

Also, while we are underleveled for the rift and undermountain, these areas are still manageable. Else no one could beat them without lowering the difficulty. But I agree that they are a difficulty spike.

Lastly, I'm not involved in the making process what so ever. These informations might not be 100% accurate, but still show the grand picture.

Makes sense why they'd hold off on that. I can only really hope that the rework happens before more content is released. I know the game isn't done, and I placed my expectations as such going into supporting and buying the game, but I would personally much rather wait a while without new chunks of 'main' content, if it meant that the new content being released is fair in terms of difficulty. Don't get me wrong, the game is totally still manageable in those areas, but it won't stay that way with future content unless those reworks happens relatively soon, at least judging by how steep this one level difference caused the difficulty to spike from I've experienced so far.

 

[zagzig]

That's because the undermountain enemies are meant for level 7 characters. As well as the rift. You are literally always underlevelled for these encoutners and you can't do anything about it.

Is there a source for that? I've heard it a few times, but for example the red skull that shows up in the map when you're underlevelled for an area doesn't appear in the Undermountain or Rift - both areas are marked for Level 6 characters. I figured people were just not ready for the difficulty jump in Act Two areas.

 

[Shrike675]

It's probably a result of players getting their shit kicked in by the gang of imps that love to disarm lock you a bunch. AFAIK it's been said that lvl 7 is mid KM at the latest.

 

[VerySexyGrammar]

What level you're "supposed to be" to tackle content is arbitrary.

Undermountain does have a massive spike in difficulty compared to most content that you do at level 6, so I would have no issue assuming that you're supposed to be level 7 at that point in the game. That said, maybe the developers disagree and will set its intended difficulty at level 6.

Ultimately, once level 7 is accessible, it won't really matter, intended difficulty will just be a suggestion.

 

[WolframL]

What level you're "supposed to be" to tackle content is arbitrary.

The devs intentionally plan dungeons and map zones to be for a particular level range and as of late the game will helpfully inform you if you're in an area below the level you're meant to be at. Per Savin, Khor'minos is structured around the player being Level 7 by the time they hit the end of that content.

 

[GOI]

a link to Savin talking aboubt how the level 7 perks were planned to be offesve focused but the game is very such focused so waiting for rebalnce to see if that fixs it before redesigning it all

 

[VerySexyGrammar]

The devs intentionally plan dungeons and map zones to be for a particular level range and as of late the game will helpfully inform you if you're in an area below the level you're meant to be at. Per Savin, Khor'minos is structured around the player being Level 7 by the time they hit the end of that content.

Yes, they've marked each area with a minimum level you're "supposed" to be at and, if your level is lower, you will see a skull icon. But that level is arbitrary. It's a suggestion based on a developer's sense and standards of game balance and difficulty.

Every player is going to have a different opinion of whether they agree with that suggestion or not. For example, at level 1, I normally start adventuring in the Foothills despite the skull icon (I think it stays even if you're level 2?) and usually do very well there. But I find that Undermountain is pretty hard even at level 6, you're taking a serious risk if you don't equip high-Armor equipment due to the very high damage output of Kobolds and Hobgoblins, and there's no warning skull for entering Undermountain at level 6. I would have marked the Foothills at least one level lower and Undermountain one level higher.

Yet I'm sure some players out there, a lot more hardcore than I, find that Undermountain is fine at level 5 and would prefer if no skull were displayed at that level either, while other players dislike difficulty and find the Harvest valley too hard and would have the skull appear for one level higher than it currently does.

In the end it doesn't matter, the difficulty is what it is and players are going to do it at whatever level they want to be. They can even change the game's difficulty in the options if they want it to be easier or harder!

 

[Baggrin]

That's because the undermountain enemies are meant for level 7 characters. As well as the rift.

When I last checked, both areas were level 6.
I was in the Rift when the maximum level was 5. In general, I did not experience any particular problems. However, this was in the early versions of 0.3 with their non-nerfed crits where I could sweep out the whole party of enemies with one good hit of the spell.
Undermountain, it seems, is also a quite possible location for level 5, this is more a matter of tactics and manual control than stats.

Some opponents, however, are more problematic than others. I find the Jotuns (Rift) and Earth Elemental (Undermountain) quite frustrating opponents, I don't like their damage at all. I haven’t seen Jotuns for a long time, so I don’t remember exactly their damage, but the Earth Elemental is able to kill with two hits and attacks
three times per turn...
Okay, let's forget about the Earth Elemental, my battles with it do not always go as I would like, but at least I worked out tactics and, with luck, I win in two turns. But I still cannot develop a reliable tactics for Jotuns, because I refuse to consider such a tactic to use Banishment on one and the quick elimination of the other.

Excuse me for asking then, but why then haven't they raised the level-cap? It seems kinda silly to keep releasing content that the players aren't actually equipped to deal with.

In fact, the current opponents do not exceed the level cap in terms of level. Use "Sense" in battle and click on the three dots under the enemy status slots, there will be a level indicator and other interesting things.

As for the Level Cap, it's about gameplay and game balance. The game is only half ready and taking into account the planned maximum level of 10, the opponents of this arc should be 6-7 levels.
The current level cap allows debelopers to balance enemies exactly at the same level characters, not superior.
It also gives developers more time to come up with new perks and powers. Just for reference: the opponents in the Rift (at least the old ones, it is possible that new ones I did not know) do not have level 6 powers, since by that time these powers had not yet been invented/balanced.

P.S. Personally, my problem with opponents is the difficult acceptance of the fact that opponents can have multiple action points and are not bound by the five slots for powers. I am also pissed off by this bullshitium-made Frenzy that constantly negates already unforgivably short-lived debuffs....

 

[Kingu2]

In fact, the current opponents do not exceed the level cap in terms of level. Use "Sense" in battle and click on the three dots under the enemy status slots, there will be a level indicator and other interesting things.

the Leader of the batfolk is in fact level 7. before that I'm pretty sure there are a hand full of enemies in the rift that where level 6 before the cap increased for players so I don't think that rule necessarily applies to enemies.

When I last checked, both areas were level 6.
I was in the Rift when the maximum level was 5. In general, I did not experience any particular problems. However, this was in the early versions of 0.3 with their non-nerfed crits where I could sweep out the whole party of enemies with one good hit of the spell.
Undermountain, it seems, is also a quite possible location for level 5, this is more a matter of tactics and manual control than stats.

Some opponents, however, are more problematic than others. I find the Jotuns (Rift) and Earth Elemental (Undermountain) quite frustrating opponents, I don't like their damage at all. I haven’t seen Jotuns for a long time, so I don’t remember exactly their damage, but the Earth Elemental is able to kill with two hits and attacks
three times per turn...
Okay, let's forget about the Earth Elemental, my battles with it do not always go as I would like, but at least I worked out tactics and, with luck, I win in two turns. But I still cannot develop a reliable tactics for Jotuns, because I refuse to consider such a tactic to use Banishment on one and the quick elimination of the other.

the Rift is a level 6 area and the Jotuns are waaaay easier to deal with than the elemental. While they do have high damage their armor is quite low so you can focus them down one at a time fairly quickly with a few high damage single target attacks. There are a few problems with the Elemental that make it a real pain in the ass and not worth fighting ever. Along with it's damage it has absurdly high armor and resistances so most physical attacks are out. It's immune to most resolve attacks. it's weak to spells but only storm and frost elements are effective, and afaik there is only one acid attack in the game that you can acquire. you Basically have to build a strat specifically to deal with them when every other enemy in that area requires crowd clearing.

 

[VerySexyGrammar]

unforgivably short-lived debuffs....

Ah, the debuffs being based on turns rather than rounds does change a lot, doesn't it.

You put a 2-turn debuff on an enemy, it acts twice, the debuff is already gone by the time your character's turn comes around again.

At least it's good for DoTs. The enemy will consume all charges much faster.

 

[Baggrin]

the Leader of the batfolk is in fact level 7.

I forgot about it. Probably because I have never met the leader for whole spent in Undermountain time. But constantly met an Earth Elemental. I swear one day I met this guy three or four times in a row...

I'm pretty sure there are a hand full of enemies in the rift that where level 6 before the cap increased

I did not mean that before the opponents in the Rift were level 5, I meant that I successfully fought with them as a level 5 party.

Jotuns are waaaay easier to deal with than the elemental

Two Jotuns, two action points each, dual weilding. In my opinion, this people with connivance of random can Cleave to death (almost) all party and at the end of the turn finish the survivors.

Basically have to build a strat specifically to deal with them when every other enemy in that area requires crowd clearing.

Hexblade Cait, Queen Ryn, I am a black mage. Powers? Mirror Stance, Crackle Powder, Arc Cannon, Summon Phyria, Banishment. I consider the opportunity to choose an Equilibium instead of Mirror Stance, because the threat level seems from almost the obligations turned into just a recommendation...

I tried the option with the Winter Knight Brint instead of Cait, but I found that the synergy of such a group is much less than I would like, (Knight) Brint is so slow and his turn last, as a result, he receives a blessing not for the attack that I would like. And against the Earth Elemental he showed himself worse than Cait.

Ah, the debuffs being based on turns rather than rounds does change a lot, doesn't it.

You put a 2-turn debuff on an enemy, it acts twice, the debuff is already gone by the time your character's turn comes around again.

Yeees. For some time I used Primal Scar, a brand new spell of the Black Mage, but in the end I noticed that against most strong enemies it ... let's say, not so effectively, as I would like.


P.S. What mistakes I often do in my phrases...

Just for reference

I understand correctly that the "just for record" is more appropriate?

 

[Kingu2]

I did not mean that before the opponents in the Rift were level 5, I meant that I successfully fought with them as a level 5 party.

I know, I did too but it's still a level 6 area. generally speaking just because you're not having problems with an area doesn't mean you're at the recommended level for it. if you find a level 7 enemy in an area, it's probably meant for level 7 characters

Two Jotuns, two points actions each, dual weilding. In my opinion, this people with connivance of random can Cleave to death (almost) all party and at the end of the turn finish the survivors.

yeah I play a dual wield thief build and always oneshot the first one with eviscerate before they ever get a turn so this enemy type has literally never been a problem for me. as for the elemental I can deal with it reliably but the build for it slows down my fights with the goblins, imps and minotaurs and frankly it's not worth the hassle.

 

[Burnerbro]

Ah, the debuffs being based on turns rather than rounds does change a lot, doesn't it.

You put a 2-turn debuff on an enemy, it acts twice, the debuff is already gone by the time your character's turn comes around again.

At least it's good for DoTs. The enemy will consume all charges much faster.

Any buffs those enemies are under run out quicker as well, sometimes denying them the ability to actually utilize them effectively. Though a lot of the buffs specific to bosses seem to have extended durations or last through the whole encounter to counteract that.

I also take all solace in the fact that the enemies respect the new modified rules they operate on and don't, for example, get any extran out of order turns where they get to do whatever they want without even proccing the DoT ticks. Just a couple of instances of pure BS like that made me swear off Darkest Dungeon 2 early access.

 

[Baggrin]

as for the elemental I can deal with it reliably but the build for it slows down my fights with the goblins, imps and minotaurs

I would say that there is a solid enough thief build for this location: Equilibrium, Cleave, Celestial Smite and Deadly Shadow. Weapon: Sanctified Gladius and Kunai. Companions: Winter Knight Brint and Queen Ryn.
Elemental Fighting Tactic: Equilibrium, Blessing, Freeze Solid and Celestial Smite. With everyone else, the tactic may vary somewhat, but in general: Deadly Shadow, Blessing, Entropic Winds, Cleave, and Wintery Bellow.

Although, of course, this is only my opinion on Undermountain encounters and the victory in them by the thief character. It also includes maximum willpower...

 

[VerySexyGrammar]

I also take all solace in the fact that the enemies respect the new modified rules they operate on and don't, for example, get any extran out of order turns where they get to do whatever they want without even proccing the DoT ticks. Just a couple of instances of pure BS like that made me swear off Darkest Dungeon 2 early access.

Oh yeah, I noticed that happened sometimes... a few enemies have free "start of turn" actions, like the big fire cultists (shall we call them "Burner bros"?) buffing their speed. I remember being almost outraged the first few times I saw it, but then I just started thinking of them as a passive "at the start of your turn, gain speed" abilities and it didn't bother me as much because then I didn't think of them as "actions" anymore.

Indeed I don't think there are many things like that in CoCII. Off the top of my head, there's the elf guard in front of Winter City who does something instantly whenever her or her doggy goes unconscious, and that crazy bitch (in the Foothills?) who resurrects herself mid-fight.

 

[Kingu2]

I would say that there is a solid enough thief build for this location: Equilibrium, Cleave, Celestial Smite and Deadly Shadow. Weapon: Sanctified Gladius and Kunai. Companions: Winter Knight Brint and Queen Ryn.
Elemental Fighting Tactic: Equilibrium, Blessing, Freeze Solid and Celestial Smite. With everyone else, the tactic may vary somewhat, but in general: Deadly Shadow, Blessing, Entropic Winds, Cleave, and Wintery Bellow.

Although, of course, this is only my opinion on Undermountain encounters and the victory in them by the thief character. It also includes maximum willpower...

you literally just described my build and strategy just replace winter knight Brint with kitsune-bi Kiyoko and freeze solid with entropic fortune.

 

[Alliebutt]

Honestly I can deal with most of the ordinary fights just fine. But the second fight with Whisper? That one is just an exercise in cruel and unusual punishment. Especially the first time I ran into it entirely unprepared, due to how easy most of the other bosses in the game had been prior to him, so I didn't bother properly stocking up prior to the AD dungeon.

Even when I'm prepared for it, it still comes down to quite a bit of luck based on who he attacks and whether there's crits involved. Which is ironic since the game gives you a tear for the lureling, which is significantly easier than him in my opinion, so it would've been much more needed against him rather than the overgrown Squidward.