Main problem with nagas?

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Souminona

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Dec 24, 2017
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Just wondering.
Nagas may have primary genitalia in front crotchal region, and as for double penetration, sometimes they are depicted as having a gap below the crotch, with the tail per se starting at the knees. Is it because of scenes that describe legs in particular (leg lock, leg over shoulders...)?
 

EmperorG

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Sep 6, 2015
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Wait till they hear you can't have a uniball.

I always did find it strange why odd numbered balls were an option in CoC back in the day, just a really weird visualization in my head, and I say this as a person who really likes to go all out transforming. No offense to those who like that sort of thing, just verbalizing a long standing thought.
 
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Souminona

Active Member
Dec 24, 2017
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Great. Now not only will we have people whining about the pc not having 4 arms, but also no taurs and nagas! Good luck devs. You're gonna need it.
Jesus Christ man, I`m just asking.
I`m aware of how things generally are right now, I`ve read most of the doument and wanted to know some specific things. And I am aware it`s ultimately the devs decision to add or ban something.
I`m NOT gonna whine about stuff, hence why I dropped the multiple arms QUESTION thread.
If any moderator or dev say it, I'll simply delete the thread, no hard feelings.
 
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Pursang

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Apr 7, 2018
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I'm not a developer but if I where to hazard a guess, being forced to account for non-bipedal bodies slows down development because of the increased amount of variables that need to be accounted for. I would also guess that the amount of people who want non-bipedal characters is - relatively - limited.
 

Souminona

Active Member
Dec 24, 2017
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I'm not a developer but if I where to hazard a guess, being forced to account for non-bipedal bodies slows down development because of the increased amount of variables that need to be accounted for. I would also guess that the amount of people who want non-bipedal characters is - relatively - limited.

I think it would be 1 or 2 more extra variables, but I can see the problem and I agree with the limited interest.

Although personally it would be just an extra detail for my character. My character in TiTs have wings and vanae markings, but I'm not worried that (apparently) there aren't any descriptions or interactions with those whatsoever.

With what is in the design document it sounds more like frustration for not being able to cover that for ppl who like it. The ammount of work to cover that base would grow, I'm just not sure how much.
 

Wsan

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Because accommodating non-biped bodytypes in writing is a huge pain in the ass that 99% of writers don't ever bother with. I get that you like to be a naga but you're not going to convince anyone when we've all already been writers and already know how much it sucks. Even I didn't bother fighting for taurs in CoC2.
 

Pursang

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Apr 7, 2018
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Because accommodating non-biped bodytypes in writing is a huge pain in the ass that 99% of writers don't ever bother with. I get that you like to be a naga but you're not going to convince anyone when we've all already been writers and already know how much it sucks. Even I didn't bother fighting for taurs in CoC2.

Right, as you alluded to there is the matter of consistency. From what I gather Savin wants to make CoC2 more coherent in both gameplay and story, but if event writers simply don't want to write non-bipedal variables, and Upcast Drake already has a (I assume) high workload, coherency and quality will suffer. But who knows, maybe with enough people speaking up for their desire for non-bipedal characters, the development team may change their minds. After all, the game is still very early in development!
 

Souminona

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Dec 24, 2017
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Because accommodating non-biped bodytypes in writing is a huge pain in the ass that 99% of writers don't ever bother with. I get that you like to be a naga but you're not going to convince anyone when we've all already been writers and already know how much it sucks. Even I didn't bother fighting for taurs in CoC2.
I`m not trying to push for it to be added, and I didn`t want my MC to be a naga. I just wanted a definitive answer as to what was the thought behind this decision.

Right, as you alluded to there is the matter of consistency. From what I gather Savin wants to make CoC2 more coherent in both gameplay and story, but if event writers simply don't want to write non-bipedal variables, and Upcast Drake already has a (I assume) high workload, coherency and quality will suffer. But who knows, maybe with enough people speaking up for their desire for non-bipedal characters, the development team may change their minds. After all, the game is still very early in development!
That does it, now I know.

Thank you all, and I didn`t mean to annoy anyone, sorry.
 
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Dragonice

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Oct 7, 2017
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The only way I see this happening is if later on in the game's development someone personally did an overhaul of the intire game serrounding Naga/taur content. Basically do everything for the devs and ether you burn yourself out or do a good job and they say good job sure.
 
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Souminona

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Dec 24, 2017
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The only way I see this happening is if later on in the game's development someone personally did an overhaul of the intire game serrounding Naga/taur content. Basically do everything for the devs and ether you burn yourself out or do a good job and they say good job sure.
Nah, said person would probably die of old age before they finish.

Another way I see it happening are temporary TFs, something the MC only during a scene, maybe a potion or magic. Who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Pursang

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Apr 7, 2018
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There is a less than 0% chance of that happening. As in, people fighting for it will just cause Savin and the writers to dig in more.

I don't think that's true at all, as you mentioned there will already be non-bipedal NPCs in the game, so it becomes a "simple" question of resources and time. Who is to say that (in the admittedly likely event) that the CoC2 team won't have enough resources and time in the future?

Nor do I think it's true that Savin and the other writers will be so immature as to automatically disregard and become militant about requests for certain content, because in the end of the day they're just that, requests. So long as they're done in a respectful way it costs nothing to entertain them, or if not entertain, then at the very least allow people to voice them.
 

Souminona

Active Member
Dec 24, 2017
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We shall have all the balls.
gfu5B4F.png
 

Wsan

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Jan 8, 2016
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The only way I see this happening is if later on in the game's development someone personally did an overhaul of the intire game serrounding Naga/taur content. Basically do everything for the devs and ether you burn yourself out or do a good job and they say good job sure.

No. This will very definitely not happen, as nobody would be trusted to do this. In fact I considered doing exactly what you just said back in 2016 for taurs when we first started work on CoC2 and deemed it infeasible; it's too much of a task for any one person. This is unfortunately something you would only really understand if you were a writer, but trust me when I say I explored that avenue for myself.
 
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Dragonice

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Oct 7, 2017
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You're... new here, aren't you?

It's not a matter of resources and time, it's a matter of design intent and planned limitations. I'm on the CoC2 team, at least as a volunteer content creator, and I can assure you that no one has any intentions of trying to convince everyone that PC taurs/nagas are worth the effort, because it would be a decision that affects every single one of us, and would increase everyone's workload. Wsan loves taurs, Wsan wants taurs, and the crazy bastard even writes taurs. Not even he is pushing to overturn this decision, and it's a decision that's been finalized for almost two years at this point.

Writing for a tauric or naga player character is entirely different than writing a tauric or naga NPC. An NPC takes little to no special consideration, and can simply be written as-is. Enabling non-humanoid PC's opens the door for untold numbers of necessary considerations, workarounds, and variants, oftentimes literally doubling a writer's workload in order to properly accommodate them. Having written tauric and naga scenes myself, I can say with certainty that it is a huge additional commitment, and many other authors have openly admitted to knowingly and purposefully refusing to cater to them purely because the additional effort required versus the small number of people the content appeals to is not worth it to them.

As for being "immature," putting one's foot down on a certain matter is not immaturity, but begging and pleading for something despite a firm refusal is. That's what people will do if you throw out false hope like this. We need to communicate, in no uncertain terms whatsoever, that this is not something we are going to do, nor something we will allow people to do.

Allowing people to endlessly ask for the same things and resurrect the same tired discussions accomplishes nothing productive, and just annoys all of us. There's already a whole list of forum memes for stupid things like 4-armed PC's, pregnancy expansions for certain NPC's, and other overdone, worn-out topics, and this subject doesn't need to be added to that list...
In times like these there's only one thing to do. Change of topic- How's your projects going Mistybirbs? Good, Nice.
I've been working on something myself as well but in all honesty I have no idea how it's doing.
 
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The Observer

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Aug 27, 2015
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But who knows, maybe with enough people speaking up for their desire for non-bipedal characters, the development team may change their minds. After all, the game is still very early in development!

This is not a democracy. The number of people asking for X content may draw (fleeting) attention to the issue, but no matter how many people demand explicitly unwanted topics, they're not going to get in.

Nor do I think it's true that Savin and the other writers will be so immature as to automatically disregard and become militant about requests for certain content, because in the end of the day they're just that, requests. So long as they're done in a respectful way it costs nothing to entertain them, or if not entertain, then at the very least allow people to voice them.

Nice backhanded insult. "If you don't entertain us, you're immature."

I have a one word reply: Helspawn.
 
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Pursang

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Apr 7, 2018
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You're... new here, aren't you?

No... while this account is relatively new I've been lurking the Fenoxo forums for at least half a decade. I am versed on the issues at hand.

It's not a matter of resources and time, it's a matter of design intent and planned limitations. I'm on the CoC2 team, at least as a volunteer content creator, and I can assure you that no one has any intentions of trying to convince everyone that PC taurs/nagas are worth the effort, because it would be a decision that affects every single one of us, and would increase everyone's workload. Wsan loves taurs, Wsan wants taurs, and the crazy bastard even writes taurs. Not even he is pushing to overturn this decision, and it's a decision that's been finalized for almost two years at this point.

Alright so I'm a little confused here, as I thought that Savin had creative control over the game . As a (I assume unpaid) volunteer content creator, do you have any direct say as to the content and direction of the game? I'm not wholly abreast as to who has what authority. If so I mean no disrespect, but it seems silly to draw the proverbial line in the sand at non-bipedal NPCs. What if a billionaire where to offer the team one-hundred million dollars upfront to get non-bipedal PCs into the game proper? With that kind of money Savin could hire a AAA game development house to help him with the additional workload. Yes the chances of that happening are extremely small, but a 0.01 percent chance is still a chance. That's the point I was trying to make, that circumstances can change even if they're unlikely to.

As for being "immature," putting one's foot down on a certain matter is not immaturity, but begging and pleading for something despite a firm refusal is. That's what people will do if you throw out false hope like this. We need to communicate, in no uncertain terms whatsoever, that this is not something we are going to do, nor something we will allow people to do.

Allowing people to endlessly ask for the same things and resurrect the same tired discussions accomplishes nothing productive, and just annoys all of us. There's already a whole list of forum memes for stupid things like 4-armed PC's, pregnancy expansions for certain NPC's, and other overdone, worn-out topics, and this subject doesn't need to be added to that list...

Ah, but begging and pleading is different than respectfully asking for features. Let's be perfectly frank, unless you're a veteran gamer, or talked to the developers directly, the average person likely won't understand why something can and can't be in the game. There's nothing inherently malicious about it; it's simple ignorance borne of an innocent desire. Ignorance is unfortunate, but it is prevalent nonetheless - as much as it may annoy us - so if someone is disrespectful, then by all means you have the moral high ground to do something about it. In the same vein, if someone asks for something in a respectful way, shouldn't their respect be returned? Savin and TheObserver have already been doing a great job of taking the time out of their busy schedule and engaging with the community in addressing their questions and comments.

This is not a democracy. The number of people asking for X content may draw (fleeting) attention to the issue, but no matter how many people demand explicitly unwanted topics, they're not going to get in.

I did not mean to imply that it was a democracy, only that some things just aren't that black-and-white. As I mentioned in my post, the limiting factor in non-bipedal characters is not that they shouldn't be in the game (they will be in the game as NPCs) but because nobody wants to deal with the time and effort in developing the game to have non-bipedal PCs.

Nice backhanded insult. "If you don't entertain us, you're immature."

*If you're not respectful you're immature.

I was trying (and apparently failing) to make a hypothetical point about mutual respect, you've been very patient with my questions especially in regards to the conversation battle system. I think you're underselling yourself and Savin if you think you're being immature. ;-)

May I offer a solution in trying to deal with this problem? Take a book out of AAA game development: Create a FAQ thread (I realize there already is one, but maybe make it more complete) with all the answers to frequent questions (game content, direction, who to blame when the servers catch fire) directly on the forum, sticky it, and direct the moderation team/staff to reply to those threads with a direct link to the FAQ. And with that due-diligence out of the way, feel free to lock the offending thread and sigh in relief. Hell, if you want I can probably whip one up using the design brief as a basis, although it may have a few errors depending on if the info is up to date or not.

Let me know. :catte:
 
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Upcast Drake

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May I offer a solution in trying to deal with this problem? Take a book out of AAA game development: Create a FAQ thread (I realize there already is one, but maybe make it more complete) with all the answers to frequent questions (game content, direction, who to blame when the servers catch fire) directly on the forum, sticky it, and direct the moderation team/staff to reply to those threads with a direct link to the FAQ. And with that due-diligence out of the way, feel free to lock the offending thread and sigh in relief. Hell, if you want I can probably whip one up using the design brief as a basis, although it may have a few errors depending on if the info is up to date or not.

Let me know. :catte:
We could literally make a prompt that is an FAQ that launches every time the game starts and you have to click a button to accept you read it, and people wouldn't read it. If people don't use common sense and use the search feature before posting, I don't have sympathy for their ignorance.
 

Pursang

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Apr 7, 2018
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We could literally make a prompt that is an FAQ that launches every time the game starts and you have to click a button to accept you read it, and people wouldn't read it. If people don't use common sense and use the search feature before posting, I don't have sympathy for their ignorance.

You’re right, but if I may be a little trite, common sense isn’t so common. Besides, nobody has perfect information about everything... I don’t know about you but I’m unfortunately ignorant on a whole lot of topics. I think a good way to educate people on a certain subject (in this case what’s going to be in the game and why) is to have readily accessible information, maybe in the form of a comprehensive FAQ, maybe not. The important thing is that you can point to it whenever you see one of these threads pop-up, which is much more constructive and useful for everyone’s time than simply complaining angrily about it fruitlessly.

Yes, you are always going to get people who simply don’t know better, that is life, but perhaps you’ll have to deal with it a little less. I’m sure you’re very busy and don’t want to entertain what I’m trying to convey, but I honestly think it would help in the long run. It would not only help with forum clutter, but it would help with player retention if people weren't constantly rebuffed and made to feel unwelcome.

It’s just a thought though, ultimately you are the masters of your fate.
 
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Wacol

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Apr 16, 2018
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While you may only think about non-humanoid builds in specific situations, they could be quite annoying in situations you wouldn't even think about them if they weren't there.

For example:
"A few meters ahead you see the tunnel you've been following for quite a while now get narrower. Hopening, to not get stuck, you turn sideways and hold your breath, trying to squeeze through."

In this situation, the writer could safely ignore the body build of the player, since you could say it's narrow for him, no matter if he's fat or lean (you don't see the situation after all). If you had the option of a tauren body, though, they'd have to not put it in at all or write a completely different scene only for your four-legged players.

Or a naga example:
"In font of you lies the frozes lake. Carefully, you put one foot on it, testing if it will hold your weight. Once you're sure that the ice won't break, you continue on, being careful not to slip on the cold ground."

Another scene where most writers wouldn't even put much thought behind it, while they would have to somehow write around it, if the player had the option of having a tail.

That was just two examples that quickly came to my mind. Now think how many more of such situations could arise over the entire game (just going up a staircase could become problematic, if you don't put thought behind it). Would you want to be the onewho has to check every single scene for the chance that there might be little inconsistencies for four-legged/tailed/whatever else players?
 

Savin

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Aug 26, 2015
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No, you can't have naga/taur/other non-bipedal body types. That is a line in the sand that has been drawn for over two years.

The design philosophy behind this entire game is, "If you can't do something well, don't do it at all." TiTS and CoC1's handling of non-bipeds is abortive at best, barely extant at worst. Rather than trying to whip content creators into wasting more and more time trying to actively include variants for these niche body types in every single event and scene where body type is relevant, I made the decision to cut them altogether. It makes for a more coherent experience for the player, and a much more pleasant writing experience for the content creators.
 
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